" Pupils unaware of university rank"

melancholly

Lokolo wrote: »

For starters the thread title says "Pupils unaware of unviersity rank", which is mis-leading. To me that gives the impression that pupils don't know what rank the universities are. Which is not what the BBC article is saying, but rather that university ranks may have an impact on earning, which pupils do not see.

fair dos, but i did just copy the title of the BBC article because i wasn't sure what else to call it!

Lokolo

melancholly wrote: »

fair dos, but i did just copy the title of the BBC article because i wasn't sure what else to call it!

I say blame the BBC for everything. Damn those tv liscence fees, damn them!

The_One_Who

Lokolo wrote: »

What is research exactly?

I *think* it's defined as how many papers get published in certain journals such as Nature and others. Although just getting papers published and money to conduct research is a good thing.

melancholly wrote: »

that's just untrue, so so untrue! the undergrad degree you get and the institution you get it from have a major impact on your ability to get a funded phd. it is possible to go from low to high, but not easy and not advisable. having sat in on meetings where candidates get shortlisted, i know that where you went to counts.... a lot!

again, PLEASE can this thread not descend into another 'i hate league tables and i want to change the way the world works' debate. i'll just ask for it to be blocked. i think all students should have as much information as possible to make their choices and apparently they aren't getting it at the moment - that it the point of this thread.

it's also students from families who have not been to university previously who need to be given information as they won't have the same background as others. that's really important and i cannot see how anyone can possibly object to that?

whether or not your state school gave you the information, 51% of pupils don't know it so the message is not getting through. and of course Durham, York, Warwick or SOAS are great unis, for goodness sake that's not what the article is saying

It's possible, but not easy. Like how it's not particularly easy for anyone at any university.

Students should get the information themselves. I believe UCAS shows all the entry requirements for all subjects and all universities so students can narrow it down that way, exclude where they don't want to go and then keep narrowing it down. It's not hard. Also, if a student isn't sure about which course to do at which university advise them to perhaps take a gap year to have a proper think about it all.

I know state schools (especially Scottish ones) don't know a lot about Oxbridge admissions, and that should be addressed. But I do believe that it is up to the student to do the legwork and find things out for themselves. Schools should just be there as a stepping stone or to advise on where to find the information.

The article says that "Going to a Russell Group university gives graduates a salary 'top-up' of approx 6% to 10% depending on the course and approximately £3,000 per year more for entry-level graduate jobs," but going to a non-Russell university isn't going to hinder you that much.

melancholly

:rotfl::rotfl:.
EDIT - i was laughing at Lokolo's comment btw, there was another post in the meantime i wasn't being rude!

celyn90

Lokolo wrote: »

My school was fully made aware of the league tables. My head of sixth was so far up her own a*rse that she wanted everyone to be Oxbridge candidates. She did not like it when I told her my uni was ex-poly and actually refused me a day off school to go to an open day.

My (state) school was the same. All of my practice interviews came after I'd already had real interviews because the school was only concerned with the Oxbridge one. I really resented that.

I understand melancolly's point - that the information should be available (regardless of its percieved validity). My point is simply that it is there already and students should at least be capable of doing some research for themselves - you are deciding where you are going to be for the next however many years, noone should make that decision lightly.

melancholly

had a look and the guardian tables don't include research
http://education.guardian.co.uk/university2009/story/0,,2276943,00.html

the times tables do (and are very similar to the guardians) but i can't see anything on their website about how they make the ratings. i would guess it's very much linked to the scores departments get for the RAE (research assessment exercise) where the better quality research (i.e. articles in higher impact factor journals) gets more points. the scoring for the RAE is far from transparent though!

melancholly

celyn90 wrote: »

I understand melancolly's point - that the information should be available (regardless of its percieved validity). My point is simply that it is there already and students should at least be capable of doing some research for themselves - you are deciding where you are going to be for the next however many years, noone should make that decision lightly.

but when so many students apparently run to get a student loan without reading any of the rules on how it gets paid back etc, i guess i'm a little sceptical that they will go out of their way to find it out!! yes they should, definitely, but clearly they're not and in a very high proportion according to this article.... is that lack of advice from schools or parents or something else?! it is just too much to expect them to do or are they used to be spoonfed information lower down in the education system?! i don't know the answer, but something isn't working at the moment.

The_One_Who

The RAE scores are also years out of date and are themselves quite flawed. The Guardian tables are ridiculous, as are the Independent's. If you must look at league tables use The Times. Although student satisfaction data and ratios of staff:student are to my mind not that helpful in determining university ranks.

EDIT: Melancholly, I'd say that students are so used to being spoonfed everything. The details of the student loan are plain to see if you only just read a little bit.

Lokolo

Well done on £3k posts btw.

It is quite suprising. My school did help with student finance funnily enough, they got the LEA to send like 150 copies of the application and head of sixth form said if anyone needs help they can ask. However I just threw mine away and applied online. (lol)

I think the tables are good with some parts but useless with others. For example, the job prospects thing says my university gets about 60% but the uni claim 90%. Weird. Who is right? Also it doesn't count how much effort the students put into finding a job lol, I'm sure some just went yeh apply for that, don't go to interview too far away etc.

Nevermind eh, I guess kids nowadays just like to be spoonfed!

melancholly

well that's why there are multiple league tables (and even though they are all using different criteria, the fact that end up pretty much the same says quite a lot in itself!)