Credit card stolen - can anybody help?

christmasoompa

Hi all,

My hubby recently had his wallet pickpocketed (from a zipped up pocket on the inside of his coat) while he was in a Starbucks near work in London. He was alerted almost immediately by Goldfish who phoned him and asked if he was withdrawing cash at an ATM (he has never ever used his credit card to withdraw cash before so it must have triggered something). He then realised his wallet was gone and all cards were cancelled within about 20 mins of the theft.

The thieves apparently managed to get £220 out (£20 followed by £200) which we were utterly confused by as we couldn't understand how they had managed it without a pin number. My hubby has had the same pin for 15 years, it's the same for all his cards, and consequently he's never needed to write it down. It's not a birthday or any memorable numbers for him - it's the one he was originally given when he opened his student account at uni and h just stuck with it and remembered it ever since!!

He hadn't used the card for a few days (he paid cash in the Starbucks so they couldn't have watched him for the PIN there), and the last time he used it was for petrol near our home. So there is no way that the thieves can have got his pin number.

Goldfish are now saying that he must have had it written down somewhere and despite his protestations that he genuinely didn't, are saying it is likely that he'll have to pay the money. We are strapped for cash as it is so trying to find another £220 does not fill us with glee.

I'm really cross because he has been a Goldfish customer for years and has always paid his bill in full so they know he's an honest guy and a genuine customer.

Does anybody know how the thieves managed to get this money out?? Anybody had a similar experience?

Thank you all.

hansi

Sorry to hear about your hubby's experience. I had almost the same thing happen to me except that my card was cloned and I was told that the original card was used (which it couldn't have been) and the PIN used. After many weeks of arguing back and forth, the bank eventually conceded that the card was swiped and not PIN authorisd so I got the money refunded, almost £2000. What you have to impress upon Goldfish is this. Under the Banking Code, THE BANK HAS TO PROVE THAT YOU WERE NEGLIGENT ABOUT THE USE OF THE PIN NUMBER! Ask them for the transactions slips for the cash withdrawals and go to the bank where the money was withdrawn and ask to see their records of the transaction (if they will let you see them)

James

Christmasoompa,

I too am very sorry to learn of your hubby's misfortune.

What can you do?

Well in theory the Banking Code covers your husband. What Hansi writes is spot on, Goldfish MUST be able to prove your hubby was negligent with his PIN. (Having the same PIN for numerous cards can't be considered negligent, as the lady from APACS on National Radio said her husband uses the same PIN for all his Cards).

Be warned you may have a long fight on your hands and be prepared to use the Financial Ombudsman Service, although nobody has tried it yet, the Small Claims Court might be a quicker route.

Here are some recent articles from the media on this very topic:

Banks Are Too CHIPper About PIN Fraud (The Telegraph, April 2008)

Customer Pay For Card Fraud (The Scotsman, March 2008)

and a You Tube Video (WatchDog):

Chip & PIN Fraud

All you can do just now is for your hubby to put it in writting he wasn't negligent with his PIN and ask Goldfish, in accordance with the Banking Code to prove he was.

To all others.

If you've got a credit card don't PIN, Get yourself Chip & Signature Credit Cards.

Goodluck.

simongregson

I posted this in another thread, it may be of some help, although it would need adapting for your case...

---

Your credit card is issued subject to a consumer credit agreement and as such your liability is limited to £50 in the case of fraudulent transactions. Write to your bank, ask for the money back. If they say no,
ask for a 'deadlock letter' and refer on to the ombudsman.

Two facts support you:

You have taken reasonable care with your PIN, as you stored it in a password protected area of your phone.
Your liability is limited by the consumer credit act.


'83.—(1) The debtor under a regulated consumer credit agreement shall not be liable to the creditor for any loss arising from use of the credit facility by another person not acting, or to be treated as acting, as the debtor's agent. (2) This section does not apply to a non-commercial agreement, or to any loss in so far as it arises from misuse of an instrument to which section 4 of the Cheques Act 1957 applies.
84.—(1) Section 83 does not prevent the debtor under a credit-token agreement from being made liable to the extent of £30 (or the credit limit if lower) for loss to the creditor arising from use of the credit-token by other persons during a period beginning when the credit-token ceases to be in the possession of any authorised person and ending when the credit-token is once more in the possession of an authorised person.
(2) Section 83 does not prevent the debtor under a credit token agreement from being made liable to any extent for loss to the creditor from use of the credit-token by a person who acquired possession of it with the debtor's consent. '

Note you did not consent for the thief to have posession of your card, even if you had recorded the PIN somewhere.

Also:

'(4) In proceedings brought by the creditor under a credit token agreement— (a) it is for the creditor to prove that the credit-token was lawfully supplied to the debtor, and was accepted by him, and (b) if the debtor alleges that any use made of the credit token was not authorised by him, it is for the creditor to prove either— (i) that the use was so authorised, or
(ii) that the use occurred before the creditor had been given notice under section 84(3). '


Note that the max liability is now £50, the quote above is from the consumer credit act. I would include it in your complaint.

hansi

James wrote: »

Christmasoompa,

I too am very sorry to learn of your hubby's misfortune.

What can you do?

Well in theory the Banking Code covers your husband. What Hansi writes is spot on, Goldfish MUST be able to prove your hubby was negligent with his PIN. (Having the same PIN for numerous cards can't be considered negligent, as the lady from APACS on National Radio said her husband uses the same PIN for all his Cards).

Be warned you may have a long fight on your hands and be prepared to use the Financial Ombudsman Service, although nobody has tried it yet, the Small Claims Court might be a quicker route.

Here are some recent articles from the media on this very topic:

Banks Are Too CHIPper About PIN Fraud (The Telegraph, April 2008)

Customer Pay For Card Fraud (The Scotsman, March 2008)

and a You Tube Video (WatchDog):

Chip & PIN Fraud

All you can do just now is for your hubby to put it in writting he wasn't negligent with his PIN and ask Goldfish, in accordance with the Banking Code to prove he was.

To all others.

If you've got a credit card don't PIN, Get yourself Chip & Signature Credit Cards.

Goodluck.

If you have a Chip and Signature card, isn't it easier for the fraudster in that if he has stolen your card, then he can forge the signature as well?

James

hansi wrote: »

If you have a Chip and Signature card, isn't it easier for the fraudster in that if he has stolen your card, then he can forge the signature as well?

Just look at this sad case.

Firstl of all the victim is being accused of being negligent with his PIN and Goldfish are trying to PIN the blame on him.

Secondly if the fraudster didn't have the victims PIN then they couldn't have hit an ATM (ATM's don't challege crooks).

If the Card had been Chip & Signature then the only option open to the Fraudster would have been to try and use the card in a shop. To do this the Fraudster would have increased the risk of being caught. For example the card may have been blocked by the time he or she attempted to use it. The signature (if checked properly) may have given the game away.

BUT thee most import thing is -

The victim could easily prove that it wasn't his signature. His prints wouldn't be on the transaction slip, and he could never be accused of being negligent with his PIN. Cardholder liability ZERO.

I rest my case.

money-4-nothing

I deal with debit/credit cards on a daily basics and the number of cards I see with no signature on the back is shocking. If I happen to mention this they say theres no need because everythings chip n pin.

Kavanne

Who gives chip and signature cards these days?

BenL

All banks and credit card companies have to be able to issue a Chip and Sig card due to Disability Discrimination Act.

Some people just can't use a PIN and they are not allowed to be discriminated against.

christmasoompa

Thanks so much for all of your help and advice, it's very much appreciated. I still can't understand how on earth they managed to get hubby's PIN but I guess these fraudsters are cleverer than me!!

We will fight it and keep you posted! Thanks again.