Economy 10 in Norweb/UU supply area (S16)???

mute_posting

Hi, first some background:
live in a flat (c1960's) with no gas. (all electric is therefore only option)
Currently on E7 on a digital meter with 2 live outputs (1 permenant, 1 off-peak only) but when "off-peak" both billed as lower rate.

Currently off-peak-only output feeds bottom hot water IH (also have a boost option with top IH).

Heating is electric under-floor (embedded in concrete) with heatmiser controls (so I can set it to only operate on off-peak if I wish) - Incidently I've been reading on a few supply company sites (Scottish Power was one I think) and I THINK this may be also known as underfloor STORAGE heating (as all the concrete it is embedded in acts like a thermal store)

I'm a "middle" flat and all winter (according to the heat-miser displays) the temp hasn't dropped below 17 deg C WITHOUT using the heating AT ALL (I'm guessing above/below are sat in shorts all winter with their UFH crakned right up lol)

Basically, my question is - does anyone know if the economy 10 tarrifs are available in this supply area (has anyone changed to one recently in this region?)

I'm happy that on E7, my water needs should be fully met on the cheaprate (brand new gledhill pulsacoil DHW system) but with all the "cheap stuff" being after midnight, I'm thinking I'm not going to get much other benefit for the likes of washimg machine/dryer dishwasher etc (I don't like the idea of running them at night as I'll find it difficult to get to sleep with them whirring and I'm worried they may also disturb neighbours)

I was thinking that an Economy 10 tarrif (or similar!) set-up in same configuration as my E7 (i.e. a seperate "switched" off-peak but all billed off-peak during off-peak) may be more appropriate given the off-peak is divided into 2/3 seperate times (I think!), as I see it

a) a top-up (if-required) for the DHW (on the bottom IH)

b) washing Machine/dryer and dishwasher could be set to operate during the daytime/evening off-peak period

c)cooking and other "occupation" activities are more likely to fall into an off-peak period if there is one in afternoon/evening (as opposed to just midnight - 7am)

BTW the "switched" output isn't strictly required - so long as I knew the times, the bottom IH could be put on a timeclock to only come on during off-peak if there was only one tail from the meter...

Views, thoughts, suggestions and advice greatly appreciated! :A

Terrylw1

E10 meters are supported in that region (they are not available in all regions) so you can have it. Just make sure they can bill E10 tariffs. Not all Suppliers can bill E10 as it has 2 MPAN's so it can restrict your ability to switch.

mute_posting

Cheers Terry

does the 2 MPAN's apply to modern meters also?

Is it not just like E7 but with 2 seperate (cheaprate) time periods? i.e. couldn't my meter (or tele-switch???) be re-programmed / commanded by supplier to charge a 2nd period on the lower rate?

or am I missing the point of of MPAN's (which I assume are physically seperate meters)

Regards
Andy

Terrylw1

Hi Andy,

E10's are usually fitted but there are E10 meters in properties that are set up as E7. So, your Supplier could check that for you.

E10 meters have 2 MPAN's, as do other types e.g. Supertariff (Northern Elec region only) and Heatwise.

Standard E7/E8/E9 meters are 1 MPAN only. So, if you are 1 MPAN, your Supplier has to request another for you and then fit the E10 meter. Factor a bit of time in for that because they have to get one from the local distributor.

E10 has 3 readings, day/night/heat. These all record seperately so your Supplier has to add 3 readings to your bill. Some Suppliers don't have systems that bill these 3 rates so they will not take you on. There are some that do, just making it clear that hopping takes a bit more work with E10.

Day/night operate the same as your E7 except that the night time may differ. Then you get a heat boost.

It does depend on your region. Some E10's use the common 2 burst i.e. 7 hours at night and then 3 hours heat boost in the day which goes on the heat dial on the meter.

Some work on 3 bursts, 2 at night in seperate bursts and then one in the day.

There are some very informative E10 threads on here if you have a search.

Your teleswitch has to be a RTS one for them to reprogramme but they can't simply do it if your meter does not work for them on E10. Some timeswitches are mechancial (older meters) so they can't remote update those.

I've never heard of a meter that does support E10 and E7 being remotely update, but then I don't come across E10 that much. I know you can have an E10 meter programmed to E7 though which means you can switch the bursts based on your usage (by altering with your Supplier)

Hope that help a bit


Terry

mute_posting

Cheers Terry

Very useful info, the teleswitch was upgraded at the same time as the meter upgrade (used to be an all mechanical set-up)

Hope you don't mind me asking more questions!..
Do I understand this correctly, on E10 I would have 2 outputs - a permenant, and one that is only live during "off-peak" and "boost" times

Thus,
during "off-peak" both are live and ALL is charged at lower rate,
during peak, only one is live and any drawn is peak-rate
during "boost", both are live BUT one is charged at "peak-rate" and one at "off-peak"

If the above is correct, I'm thinking that E10 is perhaps not what I want/ was thinking of - I want like I currently have (ALL usage at lower rate during off-peak), but with the "off-peak" split up into smaller periods over the day (and if the total off-peak hours are greater than 7 - great)

If I have to do some phoning around to get it that's fine - I just want to know what is available (and more importantly,what to ask for) before I submit myself to the mercy of the call centres.

Out of interest, does anyone know where I can find out the current off-peak times for the various off-peak tarrifs (E7, E10 or any other similar tarrifs) in the norweb/UU (S16) region - it may help the decision making process.

Regards
Andy

mute_posting

Yay! Have found a company that can do E10.

For anyone else who is thinking of E10...

http://www.heatandcool.co.uk/13.html

Phoned the number and they knew what I was after straight-away and gave me me their prices (updated 1st April).

Will fit new meter for free but could take 28 days.

Gonna watch my usage over next 2-3 months and then can do a comparrison between Scottish Power E7 and Scottish & Southern E10 (with the help of a bit of spread-sheet trickery)

Terrylw1

Hi Mike,

Only your Supplier can request a meter change for you, so you need to go to them or switch to one that will do you the E10 like S&S. So, have you got to switch to them first or are you already with them?

Timeswitches will switch on any devices wired to that off peak circuit. You have off peak tails to go into the off peak connection to the meter. So, in peak you get changed at peak but nothing comes on, at off peak you get permanent power to all devies but only those wired to the off peak circuit are turned on (storage heaters) and then with the heat register you get the other burst for anything attached to it while you get 24 hours power to other devices.

This might help

http://www.just-heating.co.uk/economy10.html

The part about which Suppliers offering it is not true but it does require some hunting around for and the comparison sites don't help you switching later.

I've also seen 4 burst meters on E10.

Be_Happy

I'm finding this more and more complicated.

I switched to Scottish Power on their E7 white meter rate, but found after reading the info they sent that I would be better on the Comfortplus rate. (They don't have one called E10, in our region, anyway.) The Comfortplus rate comes in 2 varieties, one that they control giving varying heating times up to 14 hours a day and the one that I have opted for which I quote from their info brochure gives:

Night rate of 8.5 hours (in this region 11.00 to 7.30 winter)
Day rate for all other times
Control rate (for storage heaters) giving 2 or more periods of heat with an aggregate time of 8.5 hours.

At the moment I'm at the stage of waiting while they get another meter number for me, told to expect around 45 days, so that they can come and fit new meter.

Getting info from them has been like getting blood from a stone, but I've drawn a complete blank at narrowing them down to the actual times of the control rate, so it seems I'll just have to keep an eye on the meter for a day or two after it's fitted and see when it is operating.

I'm not quite sure how this Comfortplus rate equals other companies E10, but I suppose it must do.

One disadvantage will be that this rate is only available on their standard tariff and 'fixed till 2011' unlike the E7 rate which is available on several of their tariffs, but my calculations still indicate that I'll be better off on the Comfortplus rate with my 6 storage heaters.

mute_posting

Terrylw1 wrote: »

Hi Mike,

Only your Supplier can request a meter change for you, so you need to go to them or switch to one that will do you the E10 like S&S. So, have you got to switch to them first or are you already with them?

According to the number I called (link in my post above) I could switch to them and they would sort out the meter change. I'm currently with E.on and in the process of switch to Scottish Power (NOT S&S just yet) as they are way cheaper. I did email SP but they said E10 wasn't available in my region (a lie - I now know, but I think they meant they don't offer it)

My plan is to see how things go usage wise over the next 2 - 3 months (I have just treated myself to a wattson from www.diykyoto.com so I can trend the useage in 5 minute intervals to see when I'm using or could use with small changes to routine) and then (with the wattson data) plot the figures in for the E10 periods and compare with E7 - if it is beneficial, then I'll switch to Scottish & Southern

Terrylw1

mute_posting wrote: »

According to the number I called (link in my post above) I could switch to them and they would sort out the meter change. I'm currently with E.on and in the process of switch to Scottish Power (NOT S&S just yet) as they are way cheaper. I did email SP but they said E10 wasn't available in my region (a lie - I now know, but I think they meant they don't offer it)

My plan is to see how things go usage wise over the next 2 - 3 months (I have just treated myself to a wattson from www.diykyoto.com so I can trend the useage in 5 minute intervals to see when I'm using or could use with small changes to routine) and then (with the wattson data) plot the figures in for the E10 periods and compare with E7 - if it is beneficial, then I'll switch to Scottish & Southern

If you switch to SP, only they can request the meter to be fitted. You have to be an Elec Supplier to request a meter change as it has to go through a process of request from them to their appointed Meter Operator.

Whilst the meter itself may be available in your region, the Supplier may not have a tariff for it so they reject your application. Thats common, not all can support these E10 meters. The fact it's got 2 MPAN's is the reason.

You are definately taking the right approach. E10 locks you into certain Suppliers at the moment, so if it's not beneficial, it's not worth the extra hassle later.