1st credit - help needed

Mikeyorks

NickX wrote: »

It does appear that there are different rules for different people.

No ... there are different processes for different people.

HMRC (both at Southend where they process VAT - and Shipley where they process most other tax) can get up to 200k cheques on a peak day. Clearly they don't trip off to the local Bank with that lot? They're input directly from their own image based processing machines via a cosmetic overnight re-process at their Banks processing centre and into central Clearing. So the cheques go via 'the back door'. But HMRC do warn you, very clearly, on their payment documentation, that their processes do not facilitate the identification of PD cheques. And they will only accept them in very specific circumstances such as where a payment plan is in place. And even then .. only where there is a letter enclosed and which tracks the envelope away from the fully automated machines which open envelopes known (via thickness detectors) to contain only cheque + payslip. And into a stream which is processed via more manual machines and where the operator will look at the letter / cheque date

On the subject of 'full and final settlement'. The link I posted from HMRC represents the best legal view. They have to fully abide by the law .. they can't and don't make it up as they go along. I remember obtaining Counsel opinion on exactly this subject many years ago .... the HMRC page faithfully represents that opinion. As you would expect they get a number of people under investigation and who attempt to curtail that by issuing a payment in 'full and final settlement'. The link shows the legally endorsed manner in which they would rebut the conditions attached to such a payment.

Mikeyorks

NickX wrote: »

However, I don't believe they should be doing this and are actually breaking the law.

You're complicit in any error if you write a PD cheque ... as all Banks make it clear they do not support them.

If there is any cheque based 'law' on this .. I have yet to find it. And in any event, whilst this is categorised as a grey area .... it is Solicitors opinion that a cheque not yet in date ..... is not a cheque. It is a 'promissory note' at that point in time.

NickX

Mikeyorks you do appear very knowledgeable on HMRC processes.

I did discover much of this information when I saw how they managed to cash my VAT payments so quickly.

I do believe they are very powerful and can carry more weight than creditors in the private sector. Yes, they have to abide by the law and they cannot make it up as they go along, but at the end of the day who is in charge ? Yes the charismatic Alastair Darling. And as part of the Government they have the ability to make the law. I have heard of many cases of small businesses or individuals entering into disputes with HMRC, and they very rarely have a leg to stand on - for example look at the chaos with the tax credit system but that is another story.

If there is one thing that I have learnt from this thread and that is that the law is not always precise. Initially I said that the cashing of the cheque was acceptance of the "full and final" settlement. This was my experience as I have detailed, hence me making the statement. However, I have conceded that it may not always be the case. This would appear to be a grey area, as indeed does the issue of presenting post-dated cheques.

At the end of day, every situation is going to be slightly different and the outcomes will be dependent upon the views of the legal professionals involved, and if a situation goes to court, then the final decision rests at the discretion of the judge.

This is pretty much my final word on the matter except for asking the OP to keep us informed.

CLAPTON

As far as the HMRC are concerned you may be interested in the following... you seem to need to include a letter

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/howtopay/cheque.htm

for the general situation maybe the following is interesting

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/moneybox/3537727.stm

or try googling 'post dated cheques'

Mikeyorks

CLAPTON wrote: »

As far as the HMRC are concerned you may be interested in the following... you seem to need to include a letter

.... but it's not a letter they particularly want to read. It's just to thicken the envelope slightly and make sure it doesn't go to the automatic mail extraction system they (and BT / M&S etc) use to open the 'compliant' envelopes containing only a cheque + payslip :-

http://www.opex.com/prod_payment.php?pid=40

.... they use (mentioned at the end) the earlier variant of this machine. The additional thickness (there's a faster pre-process [Opex 151]to outsort envelopes with metal [staples / paperclips] and additional thickness caused by multiple cheques / payslips) .. merely tracks the envelope to a more manual desk sized opener where the operator does look at the dates on cheques. So the letter is just an artifice to put the content under human eyes.

Don't understand the BBC bit about PD cheques 'not being honoured'. They either bounce because the account isn't adequately funded or they're accepted. A very small number are bounced as not 'in date' .. if the Bank do spot them (normally because the account balance won't support it). But despite the fact 'they're not really a cheque' .... I've never seen one rejected for that reason. And that's from a lot of years working adjacent to businesses that receive a lot of PD stuff .. and accordingly need procedures to handle (or ignore!) them.