MONEY MORAL DILEMMA. Should Vinnie chase the robbers?

johnandkim

SRS wrote: »

Yes, he should! It should be nothing to do with the amount he gets paid. It's should be about a citizen's duty to society. Where on earth are we heading, if people just stand back and let criminals get away with acts like this, using the excuse that it's not 'their' job to do anything about it, or they don't 'get paid enough' to do anything about it? What does that teach others, especially our young people? Come on, wake up, smell the coffee! We all have a responsibility to shape our society and take it in the direction we want to go. That involves setting examples and upholding standards, doesn't it? Otherwise we will get the society we deserve. And it won't be pretty. Remember, a wiser man than me once observed that all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing ...

If everyone had this attitude then maybe we would have a better society that the crappy one we have at the moment. :mad:

peeedoffandskint

i reckon he should, department stores are stressful so i'm sure he'd grab any chance to get out fer a bit. he could probably get say 20 mins break by chasin them half heartedly

panlane

englishmac wrote: »

Gary Newlove is an example of an upright citizen standing up for society's values. Where did it get him? The result of Mr Newlove's actions may still be a minority outcome but it is an increasing concern. The website isn't dedicated to maximising the value of property but to preventing faceless organisations from taking us for a ride , thereby increasing our personal security and allowing us to live peaceful lives. When it comes to crime, I expect the police and the legal system to tackle the problem. That is what I pay a substantial proportion of my taxes for.

Two things:

Firstly, faceless organisations (whatever they may be, considering you can easily find out who runs them) taking you for a ride is quite simply the diminishing of your property and its value. So that was included in my catch-all term.

Secondly, I recommend you consider Robert Peel's founding ethos of the police force:

"Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence."

But one of the nine points that very sensibly set out what we should expect from both the constabulary and ourselves: the police have a statutory duty to deal with crime, we have a civil one. It is charming to see that in modern Britain the mercenary requirement of money has replaced all notion of things being done for the simple fact that they are the right thing to do. In such circumstances, we have both the police service and the criminals that we deserve.

It does appear that it may be time to start paying parents to look after their children because from the sounds of it many may not bother unless we do so.


N.B. I sympathise with those that are afraid of prosecution or attack, my gripe is with those that demand financial incentive.

englishmac

panlane wrote: »

Two things:

Firstly, faceless organisations (whatever they may be, considering you can easily find out who runs them) taking you for a ride is quite simply the diminishing of your property and its value. So that was included in my catch-all term.

Secondly, I recommend you consider Robert Peel's founding ethos of the police force:

"Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence."

But one of the nine points that very sensibly set out what we should expect from both the constabulary and ourselves: the police have a statutory duty to deal with crime, we have a civil one. It is charming to see that in modern Britain the mercenary requirement of money has replaced all notion of things being done for the simple fact that they are the right thing to do. In such circumstances, we have both the police service and the criminals that we deserve.

It does appear that it may be time to start paying parents to look after their children because from the sounds of it many may not bother unless we do so.


N.B. I sympathise with those that are afraid of prosecution or attack, my gripe is with those that demand financial incentive.

‘Taking us for a ride’ was perhaps a poor choice of phrase. It is not an issue of monetary value but of mutual respect. Large companies regularly mistreat people for the sake of their profit margins, more often than not at the expense of health and safety - as in the hypothetical case of Vinnie - and respect for the individual. Retail organisations are particularly bad for this.

Perhaps if parents did a better job we wouldn’t feel the need for debate. External factors such as peer pressure have an influence but stability and respect for others start with behaviour in the home. Too often, there is a blatant lack of responsibility for the impact on others. I was raised to treat others as I would like to be treated myself and still try to adhere to this as much as possible. Seemingly trite issues irritate me, such as parents allowing their children to wipe their dirty shoes over seats in cafes, seats other people will sit in; giving in to public tantrums for short term peace which encourages children to misbehave to get their own way all the time. Trite they may appear but it is the thin end of the wedge. If they are thoughtless and uncaring in small things, what chance is there that their attitude will be any different in serious matters?

My life experience has led to cynicism. I adapt my behaviour to defend myself and those close to me if I feel it necessary. Robert Peel’s ethos is all well and good but it requires suitable support. I don’t believe that support is available these days and falling standards within the police and legal systems are unlikely to lead to a change in my opinion. Also, it is easy to blame society in the here and now for all its ills but in truth the rot started to set in long before many of us had any influence on the situation. Modern Britain isn’t much to shout about. There certainly isn’t a lot of ‘Great’ to celebrate. Decent people are becoming the minority .

davefrombirmingham

im a plain clothed store detective and while i understand the views of the public, i will say this country will only get worst if judging by these replys.

ive been in the job for 6 on/off years and recieved no special training apart from the sia course which is just another company making money.

ive had to deal with hundreds of shoplifters and have been over powered on a fair few occasions which have resulted in injurys with no thanks from either the shops or police or employer , all this for £6.90 per hour.

if we were all aware of shoplifters then that would be the best way to deal with them and deter them but saying that they need money and shops can provide.

on the whole shoplifters will either fight or flight.

not all shops have constant guarding therefor employing store detectives which playback the footage of reported incidents and log them with the police or circulate the footage via collegues in the hope they are known.

ive known shop staff to deal with shoplifters in some cases the shoplifters hand the stuff back (if still within the shop) very rare will there be any trouble.

police arent interested in attempted theft regardless of the pro on cctv etc.

prolific shoplifters often work in groups of 2 or more , would you feel safe apprehending 2 shoplifters if needed.

most shoplifters luickily only carry snippers to cut through the tags etc although there has been many times where i have been confronted by a knife or needles and a gun but luckily it was fake.

shoplifters do not want to be noticed so the best thing to do is when you see a shoplifters is too cause a nuisance ie shouting at him/her sholifter and they will run and they wont be back for a few months (hoping that they wont be remembered)

police officers will not make arrest if they are by themselves but store detectives often have to.

if you are ever in situation like vinnies then ask around for support (backup) never deal with a shoplifter by yourself.

if you ever see a person apprehending a shoplifter and the person is overpowered by the shoplifter then do your good deed of the day and help.

i personally wish there were more people like vinnie and shops invested better in security.

on a few occasions ive been arrested for so called assault when applying minimal reasonal force but luckily dropped once explained what force was needed for my safety.

the courts are a joke, i risked getting stabbed by a needle , all the shoplifter got was £20 fine £20 compensation and £35 court fees ,even though that could of infected me hiv or maimed or killed

harryhound

I was awarded £50 - but never got it of course (blood from a stone?).
Did your £20 ever appear?

Sister_X

I don't think he should. My best friend's brother is a policeman and one day my friend was walking down the street and too late he realised that a lad had run out of the local cheap booze shop and stolen a box of drink. During a conversation with his brother later, he said he wished he'd realised straight away that the lad was a thief and he'd have 'taken him down'. His brother told him that he wouldn't advise anyone to tackle someone in this day and age; so if that is advice from a policeman then I don't think Vinnie should. He would not have received the relevant training and although several people have mentioned that it is everyone's duty to tackle crime, Vinnie would not have been acting as a member of the public but an employee and he would have been acting outside of his remit and you can bet your bottom dollar if the !!!! hit the fan, his boss wouldn't stand by him and the poor lad would not only be facing a criminal prosecution but would probably lose his crappy job to boot!

fatboyslim

It's Vinnies call, if he feels he can do it then fine, if he's in any way worried then no forget it, get as good a description as possible and give it to the Police
Some people have mentioned 'Relevant Training' this IS a joke, all there is is the SIA course which basically tells you what the law is, that's it
People have the wrong idea about Security Guards, they have NO power of arrest, they have NO right to carry protective weaponry (the Police of course carry batons and CS gas) Security Guards have exactly the same powers as a citizen
Like davefrom birmingham I was also a retail Security Officer and believe me it's no fun chasing a thief round a corner and realising he has 3 mates waiting just in case he gets chased, it's also no fun being threatened by some young kid with a knife and it's no fun having a druggie who's so hellbent on getting his daily 'fix' so he goes on the rob and when confronted by security pulls a hypo from his pocket and tells you in no uncertain terms to 'go away or I'll stick ya!!'

davefrombirmingham

harryhound wrote: »

I was awarded £50 - but never got it of course (blood from a stone?).
Did your £20 ever appear?

no he never paid his fine to the courts

davefrombirmingham

fatboyslim wrote: »

It's Vinnies call, if he feels he can do it then fine, if he's in any way worried then no forget it, get as good a description as possible and give it to the Police
Some people have mentioned 'Relevant Training' this IS a joke, all there is is the SIA course which basically tells you what the law is, that's it
People have the wrong idea about Security Guards, they have NO power of arrest, they have NO right to carry protective weaponry (the Police of course carry batons and CS gas) Security Guards have exactly the same powers as a citizen
Like davefrom birmingham I was also a retail Security Officer and believe me it's no fun chasing a thief round a corner and realising he has 3 mates waiting just in case he gets chased, it's also no fun being threatened by some young kid with a knife and it's no fun having a druggie who's so hellbent on getting his daily 'fix' so he goes on the rob and when confronted by security pulls a hypo from his pocket and tells you in no uncertain terms to 'go away or I'll stick ya!!'

guards , retail security officers and store detectives need to have the same rights as the police and access " protective weaponry " to make their job safe or as safe as possible