To LPG or not to LPG?

Taadaa

I am the proind owner of a New Beetle since last Thurs.

The trouble is, it is a 2.0 petrol engine - budget wouldn't stretch to a diesel. It will mostly be used at the weekends, but it's still playing on my green consience a little.

I have enquired re LPG conversion. It would cots £1800 with a payback of two years. There are plenty of filling stations in my area (now Kent). Issues are:

- does anyone know whether it will have a neg effect on insurance (from exp.)
- it's still a non renewable fuel
- it could end up dead in the water when hydrocell power is cracked
- duty will go up
- the filling stations will disappear...

I am planning on keeping the car for a long long time. Any thoughts/advice?

cepheus

Modern conventional fuelled engines can achieve similar or possibly better emissions than LPG (in terms of CO2 and regulated emissions) because of the much greater degree of development that has gone into them. LPG cannot be said to be renewable since it is derived from fossil fuels just like Petrol and Diesel. Therefore, I expect that the tax advantages will diminish over time and certainly won't increase.

What is hydrocell power? If you mean fuel cells don't hold your breath! Lignocellulosic Biofuels (derived from the whole plant including woody products) and plug in hybrids might enter the fray in the near future, both of which offer significant advantages, although I do not see much penetration during the next few years.

moo2moo

We converted to LPG 6 years back. Its never made any difference to the insurance but you can't take the car on Eurostar, you have loads of problems filling up overseas so not a great one if you regularly travel abroad and the biggest problem we found is the tank size. With a donut tank where your spare wheel goes you have to find somewhere else for your spare wheel, tank size is tiny and you find you're forever filling up and anything bigger means you no longer have any boot space.

LPG system needs to be inspected annually and several parts only have a 10 year life.

It is cheap to run although several filling stations have panic attacks when you fill the LPG tank and the petrol tank at the same time! Duty has gone up. When we first converted it was 25p / litre, its now 36p per litre. Still much much cheaper than petrol though.

Taadaa

Thanks guys. My boot isn't exactly spacious at it is, I looked at it yesterday and really forgot how small they are..I think I will leave it for the time being.

moonrakerz

Taadaa wrote: »

I am the proind owner of a New Beetle since last Thurs.

The trouble is, it is a 2.0 petrol engine - budget wouldn't stretch to a diesel.

I have enquired re LPG conversion. It would cots £1800

Does a diesel Beetle really cost more than £1800 more than a petrol one ?????

Taadaa

As far as I could see. My model is 2001 and stretched the budget as it was. Diesels weren't introduced until 2005.

moonrakerz

When you said new, I thought you meant NEW !

freddykruggar

cepheus wrote: »

Modern conventional fuelled engines can achieve similar or possibly better emissions than LPG (in terms of CO2 and regulated emissions) because of the much greater degree of development that has gone into them.

Not true, LPG use the same engine and sometimes electrics/ecu map, therefore the cleaner the petrol engine the cleaner the LPG.
LPG burns ALOT cleaner than petrol.

It is a byproduct of crude oil in the refining process, and years ago was just simply burnt off as a waste product, until the oil companies found a use for it. Therefore it isnt a 'green' fuel, but it is the cleanest of the fossil fuel family.

Wont make any difference to your insurance premium or road tax (only factory fitted lpg get lower road tax)
The modern systems dont require much maintenance, a fuel filter once every 2 years and a general check over every year is all that is needed until 10 years when you need a new tank safety certificate. (not a big deal)

Euro tunnel (eurostar??) dont allow LPG cars so its the ferry only. As for fuelling abroad, France has LPG (GPL) at nearly every petrol station, far more than we have, and its cheaper. You only need a euro adapter that only costs about £10. Spain have also in the past 3 years started selling LPG to the public (it was only available to public transport previous to this)

The comment about tank size is right, because you get lower mpg on LPG, 45 litres doesn't take you as far, but I cant really see a problem with that when you have alot of refuelling places near you, and worst case you can always switch to petrol in emergencies.

You should be able to get it fitted alot cheaper than £1800, have a ring around, I would've thought £1200-£1500 tops.

2 year payback is a little optimistic, but if you plan to keep the car 3+ years, I'd say go for it.

LPG is the same (near enough) as the big 47 KG propane bottles you can buy. About 90 litres in a bottle at about £27;) Just to give you an idea of the type of gas it is.

To summerise:
LPG IS cleaner than Petrol
LPG IS safe to use
Short term = not worth converting
Long term = worth converting.

Finally, there are alot of people who will try to put you off, dont listen, ring a proffessional for advice and make a decision based on what you want.
People seem frightened of Gas, but there hasn't been 1 accident caused by an LPG car. In fact a LPG tank can sit in a pool of burning petrol for hours and not explode.

And if your wondering, yes I have had LPG cars, 3, but not at the minute.

cepheus

freddykruggar wrote: »

Not true, LPG use the same engine and sometimes electrics/ecu map, therefore the cleaner the petrol engine the cleaner the LPG. LPG burns ALOT cleaner than petrol.

freddykruggar The problem IS that the same engine is used. Manufacturers cannot optimise the same engine to burn a gaseous fuel such as LPG and petrol. Inevitably it will be optimised for the latter.

Modern engines are very specific highly engineered beasts with every flow characteristic and mixing regime for a wide variety of conditions mapped out to reduce emissions without increasing fuel consumption (well within the cycles at least!). However, it gets worse, since if you retrofit an engine for LPG you are creating a situation for which the engine was never designed at all. Poor 'Back street' LPG conversions made matters worse still and got a bad press since emissions from some of these substantially increased emissions, hence the clampdown, and now converters are more strictly regulated. Read the Dft consultations back in 2003.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/archive/2003/efgsrfg/roadfuelgasesandtheircontrib1333?page=9

Volkswagen UK ltd
We would recommend that grants for LPG conversions be reduced dramatically as they appear not to be delivering the claimed emissions benefits and are in many cases dangerous. Manufacturer produced cars should also be tightly scrutinised to ensure the emissions benefits are realised

TOYOTA (GB) PLC

Looking to the future, improvements in the emission performance of both petrol and diesel will continue and given their vastly superior numbers, at a faster rate than LPG improvements. The recent massive growth of diesel in the UK (16% growth YTD in the static car market) is an example of how technological developments can deliver a significant market response.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/archive/2003/efgsrfg/roadfuelgasesandtheircontrib1333?page=5

Modern petrol engines face a dilemma, since their regulated emissions (non CO2) are already very low, so you get diminishing returns. Do anything and you risk disrupting the delicate balance for no good reason.

Regarding safety, insurance and approved installers read this

http://www.lpga.co.uk/installers.htm

Note all this is from an environmental perspective only, I don't doubt it is cheaper to run LPG but I cannot see any good reason for incentives to reduce fuel duty on LPG further since this will be driven by the environmental issue.

freddykruggar

I totally agree with you that the duty will not be reduced, however I dont think it will be increased to petrol/diesel amounts anytime soon. If more where on the road you can be sure the government would increase it for there own pockets, but the small number on the road at present wouldn't make much difference, and would drive out many businesses.

I think we'll have to beg to differ on the cleaness issue,
Modern LPG injection systems are very clean, the old carburetor type where awful and just 'strapped' onto an engine without emission controls.

The thing is, LPG burns cleaner, not totally emission free, but cleaner than petrol/diesel (I'm refering to the lastest multi point injection systems that use the lambda sensor (Oxygen sensor) in the exhaust system to continually adjust the 'mixture' much as petrol systems do.
Petrol is delivered to the combustion process as a liquid that has to be atomised quickly to mix with the air, LPG once not under pressure reverts to its normal gaseous state and mix's more easily with the air, this results in a cleaner more efficient burn.

But anyway, this forum is about 'green issues' and I cannot disagree that no fossil fuel is environmentally friendly.

Your link on the insurance is a good one, I wouldn't advise anyone to get a conversion through a non approved LPGA garage. You must declare your LPG as a modification to your insurers, but I haven't come across any that refuse, that isn't to say some will, just when I renewed my policy and rang around, no one refused or inflated their premiums because of it.

Taadaa

moonrakerz wrote: »

When you said new, I thought you meant NEW !

No sorry, there is nothing money saving or green about buying new. I can't see the point when there are so many cars already here anyway, and I couldn't bear the depreciation.

Thank you for your comments, it is a long term thing, so has given me some more food for thought.