A question about HMO's

Mum_of_3_3

Hi!

We're pretty confused about HMO's and our council seems pretty vague on the matter too!

I live in a flat which is in a converted property. The property was converted in 1991 and made into 6 flats. There are 5 flats which use a communal front door and 1 which has it's own front door (although it is still attached to us if you get what I mean!). We all have our own kitchen, bathrooms etc and the only communal areas is the staircase inside the property and a car park outside.

Each flat is owned by a spearate person and each person is a director of the management company which holds the leasehold (am I right in thinking this makes us shared-freeholders or something??). We pay a very small amount into a communal bank account and arrange all repairs, redecoration ourselves.

However, two of the 6 flats are normally rented out (although 1 has been empty for ages as they want a fortune for it!).

Now what we want to know is if any of the other four currently owner-occupied flats are let will that make us a HMO and what would that entail?

We would really appreciate some advice on this as like I said our council are very vague and said they aren't sure :rolleyes:

Thanks

M_o_3

Doozergirl

I don't think it is an HMO but I can't be particularly specific either.

They are separate flats though, not a "house" or a "flat" with different people living in.

It's just not.

Mum_of_3_3

Yeah it's definately separate flats.

We have separate front doors, kitchens, bathrooms etc.

We are like a block of flats only in a converted house if that makes sense.

M_o_3

Doozergirl

Then I really do not think you are an HMO but I can't give you the right explanation for that. Others will know I'm sure.

It's about living conditions for people living in bedsits and weeding out really dodgy landlords, essentially.

red40

I am not surprised that the council are a little vague as its yet another piece of legislation that is poorly written.

But in general context mum of 3, you first need to establish the exact date of when permission via a building notice or plans where submitted to the local council because it is so close to the 1st June 1992 deadline as required by the Housing Act 2004.

If a building notice or plans had been submitted pre June 1992 and approval given, it may well not be a HMO pursuant to section 257 of HA2004.


If the building was completed in 1991 and there is no paperwork as above, then currently it isn't a HMO, because there are exactly two thirds who are owner occupiers, however if one more flat is then tenanted, less than two thirds of the converted building is then owner occupied, so effectively it becomes a HMO, pursuant to section 257 of the HA2004.

So what do it mean to you, if it becomes a HMO?

Well, technically not much, as local authorities dont like to be involved where there are owner occupiers, because in certain circumstances it can be difficult to enforce or ask owner occupiers to do anything, although if fire precautions are in adequate in a HMO that could be a different story. So the Housing Health and Safety Rating System would apply and also the management regulations relevant to section 257 certain converted blocks of flats.

You usually find that where there are a number of owner occupiers who live in a converted block, the property is generally kept in a very good condition and well looked after, although there are exceptions! The main problem with owner occupiers is they love to 'dress up' the communal stairwell with obstructions, a definate no-no for means of escape from fire.

TJ27

I agree with pretty much all of Red40's post. I've served notices on owner occupiers on several occasions regarding means of escape from fire. The requirement on the O/O is slightly different to the rented flats though. Basically we only ask that the envelope is 30 minute fireproof and that the alarm goes in. The "separate" flat needs access to the control panel, or a remote keypad installed.

You're right though Red, it does cause difficulties and I can see why some authorities might shy away from that sort of thing.

Mum_of_3_3

Thanks so much for the advice Red40 :beer:


This legislation really does seem to be very wooly indeed and those of us owner occupiers were pretty miffed when it came in as we thought we would be spending £100s of our money so the 2 flats that are rented could benefit iykwim.

If it's only really fire regs it covers I think we should be ok as each landing has it's own fire door.

I know what you mean about communal hallway in properties where most of them are let as they are normall smelly, damp an full of people's rubbish bags

But our's is in an excellent condition, we all treat it as an extended part of our properties, so whenever any of us hoover we do out there as well, it's been painted twice in the 7 years I've lived here etc. It's not too dressed up as it's really only the stairway plus a small landing on each level so there's not anything to trip over if there was a panic to get down the stairs in a hurry

I'll have to check all the peperwork we have. The builders went bust you see, which is why we have control of the freehold. So there should be a formal piece of paper with a stamp and date on from the council stating the date of planning permission approval? I'll have a look through as I know we have a copy of each lease (which does state you can't let them :mad: ).

Thanks again

M_o_3

Mum_of_3_3

Thanks TJ27

The whole central fire alarm system is why we are panicing, I mean how much is something like that going to cost??

We deliberately keep the maintenance low as we have budgeted what we need each year for insurance, accounts and running repairs, but we only have about £2k in reserve and I figure the alarm system would wipe most of this out??

What makes us mad is that all the leases (apart from the separate access one) state quite obviously that you can't let them out and it's just annoying to think that we will have to pay so that the two landlords can keep their investments up iykwim.
Is there anyway we could make the landlords totally liable for any HMO costs or would it have ot be split 6 ways?

Thanks

M_o_3

TJ27

I'm not really sure how much the alarm would cost and to be honest the council wouldn't get involved with apportioning costs. You would think that the fairest solution regarding the alarm would be for each flat to pay one sixth of the total cost. So if the alarm costs £2,400 it would seem fair that you would have to pay £400.

If you already have a 30 minute flat entrance door, and the walls to the envelope of your flat are solid, then you shouldn't have too many problems with partitions. One potential problem might lie with your ceilings. They will need to be 30 minute fireproof. If they are old lath and plaster then they will need upgrading. If they are 12.5mm plasterboard then you're OK. If you need to upgrade them then it usually involves a fair bit of disruption and redecoration afterwards.

This is where arguments can start though. As well as upgrading the ceilings from underneath, you can also upgrade them from above. So a question might arise regarding who is responsible for doing this work.

If ceilings need fireproofing you might decide that in a 3 storey block you should do all of the ceiling upgrades from the middle floor. i.e. Upgrade the ground floor ceilings from above and the first floor ceilings from below. That way only the one flat is trashed. It's a bit tough on the first floor occupant though and you still have to decide who pays for what. (The second floor ceilings are sometimes difficult to sort out too.)

Like Red40 says though, the building regs documents might hold the key to whether any of this is required at all.

Mum_of_3_3

Thanks for the extra info TJ27

This is exactly why we are scared that we may fall into an HMO if an extra falt is let in the future.

Our property is a big and victorian, so yep you guess it lath & plaster ceilings, some have been replaced due to water damage etc in the past, but I know our bedroom one of rinstance is original and has a big ornate ceiling rose, beautiful coving (or whatever it's called) which I guess would have to if it got replaced with plasterboard??

What you say about the first floor being ripped apart makes sense, but I really don't think any of us would be happy with all the mess as none of us have anywhere else to go and all of our flats are in an excellent state of decor & repair.

I'm off to check the papers & hope to God we were all converted before June '92, bloomin' rubbish landlords have loads to answer for don't they :mad:

M_o_3

Milarky

I am a (owner-occupier) leaseholder in one house (built c.1910) converted in 1974 to four self-contained flats (3 sharing the communal entrance) with a on site freeholder occupying the fourth flat. All four flats are owner occupied - and have been since at least 1993 (letting having taken place in one flat prior to that date)

Today a fireman called and I sent him around to see the freeholder. It seems the council have developed an interest in us. The question is, are we an 'HMO' under s.257 or not - as the council has to do its visit/inspection I suppose if it appears we may be - and then make a 'declaration'?

As I see it we are 100% owner-occupied, so the only cause of concern on the part of the council is the nature of that conversion. All flats are self-contained etc

The way I read this gobbledygook:

s.275(2)This section applies to a converted block of flats if—

(a)building work undertaken in connection with the conversion did not comply with the appropriate building standards and still does not comply with them; and

(b)less than two-thirds of the self-contained flats are owner-occupied.

we're are not an HMO because 'and' less than two-thirds does not apply - so section (2) does not apply and we can send the safety officer packing...

But that's my best shot at understanding this situation. Have I just read this wrongly or something. It does seems strange that we are suddenly on the LA 'radar' - as though officials are suddenly looking for ways to make themselves useful.

Can anyone clarify this or knows the right questions to ask?

Ta