London Blasts 0870 'helpline' generates revenue for Met Police!

bbb_uk

bunking_off wrote:

...This is exactly the principle used on 090, which is that the BT rate is quoted, with a rider that other networks/mobile networks may charge more.

That's because everyone is aware that calls to 09 are premium rate and can expect to pay more for these calls from mobiles, etc. 0845/0870 are classed as 'local' and 'national' by companies but it is misleading (OfCOM & the ASA have both agreed on this).

HeMan_3

I don't think it has anything to do with revenue. How about fundind the people in the back ground. After all whos paying for them??.

The MET with there over streched budget due to the goverment medalling in everything?

OR

The goverment who have come out looking good after the bombings??,

I am sure that those who work in the public sector would agree that the goverment will be the last to buy a round of drinks.

April2

HeMan wrote:

I am sure that those who work in the public sector would agree that the goverment will be the last to buy a round of drinks.

I certainly hope they will be - THAT'LL BE MY MONEY THEY'LL BE SPENDING IF THEY DO.

bunking_off

bbb_uk wrote:

That's because everyone is aware that calls to 09 are premium rate and can expect to pay more for these calls from mobiles, etc. 0845/0870 are classed as 'local' and 'national' by companies but it is misleading (OfCOM & the ASA have both agreed on this).

...but the point is that if the regulations are introduced as per 090, the designations of "local" and "national" would be dropped.

bbb_uk

bunking_off wrote:

...but the point is that if the regulations are introduced as per 090, the designations of "local" and "national" would be dropped.

It is fine just dropping them but how about making those people aware of the cost of these calls. Simply no longer putting 'local' / 'national' does not instantly solve the problem as most people have already associated 0845 as the same cost as calling someone around the corner and 'national' as costing the same as someone bit further. But BT have removed the cost barrier between 'local' and 'national' but OfCOM need to address that fact that they are (and haven't been for a while) local or national rate but cost more. I agree it would be impossible to them to say that calls from telewest cost x amount more, mobiles can cost x amount more on top but in the circumstances of 0845 always being described as 'local' and 0870 always been described as 'national' means that people could easily think that calling a (so-called) 'national' 0870 would cost the same as a national geographical number. When clearly there can be a huge different between a national geographical and a 'national' 0870. As mentioned earlier simply dropping these misleading descriptions will not solve the problem because everybody will still think that 0870 are 'national' because they've been advertised for years.

Now declaring them as premium rate would mean most people would realise that they cost a lot more from a mobile than a landline (as is the case now for proper 09 premium rate numbers).

Declaring "upto 8ppm from a BT landline, costs may vary from other networks" informs people ringing from a landline the approx price but as most people would still associate 0870 as national may think that the cost from a mobile would be a little higher but not 4/5 times higher though.

If you look in the dictionary, the word 'premium' I believe perfectly matches the current situation of 0870 numbers and obviously why 09x range of numbers were described as premium rate.

bbb_uk

I've just got a reply from Richard Poston from o2 concerning possible donation of profit made:-

Thank you for your email to Peter Erskine which has been passed to me.

We at O2 obviously recognise the enormity of the events of last Thursday in London and much effort was put into ensuring that all our employees were accounted for and that they were kept updated during the day as the tragedy unfolded in order that they could ascertain whether friends/family were safe, at the same time providing them with information on alternative means of transport and accommodation should they have been unable to return home that evening.

In addition to immediately accounting for our employees the following actions were undertaken:

>> Working extremely closely with the Emergency Services, we ensured that the O2 network was upheld and to this end we doubled the capacity of the network in the relevant areas. We also responded to the request to restrict access, in certain areas, to high priority emergency service personnel only.

>> O2 Airwave rapidly deployed services into the underground to enable the British Transport Police and Metropolitan Police to communicate in the tube tunnels. (For your information see The Guardian 14 July 2005)

Immediately following the events of Thursday 7 July, on behalf of The O2, a £100k donation was made on Friday morning to the London Bombings Relief Fund set up by the Evening Standard and Ken Livingstone. (For your information see the Evening Standard 13 July 2005).

At the request of the police, in the early hours of Saturday morning O2 donated and delivered 50 phones and unlimited free call time (and international access) to the Bereavement Centre set up by the London Resilience Team and Westminster Council.

We also enhanced the coverage and capacity of the network to meet the increased demand in the area near the bereavement centre to ensure good mobile coverage, all at a cost to the Company of some £20,000.

A specific customer care support line was also set up to assist.

As you can see from the brief overview above, we take our responsibility towards our employees, customers and those communities we serve extremely seriously

Calls to the 0870 helpline number, which was set up by the police, were charged at a customer’s normal voice call charge (charges will, of course, vary according to what plan and bundle each individual is on). Our customers are not charged on a premium rate basis by O2 therefore the consequences of us donating the profits made from people ringing the London Bombing Helpline would be insignificant in comparison to the donations already made by O2 and the facilities put in place mentioned above.

We are very mindful of our obligations to the communities which we serve, not least when a disaster of this magnitude occurs.

I believe that we responded appropriately with speed and genuine conviction and that we have done far more than what would have been achieved by donating the small revenue generated from the helpline calls in the way you suggest.

I do hope that this explains the viewpoint of O2 and if I can be of any further assistance please do not hesitate to come back to me.

Regards

Richard Poston
Director, Corporate Affairs

To date, I still haven't had a reply from vodafone or Orange.

bbb_uk

UPDATE:

I have also just received a reply from Orange and they also state they have donated £100k as well. I'm not going to quote their reply as it would be too long for this forum and didn't contain anything different or new (just that they were shocked and ensured that their staff were safe, etc).

I've yet to receive a reply from Vodafone though the email I sent to Arun Sarin has been received and read.

dag_2

Going back a bit to what bunking_off said earlier....

If Telewest were to hand the call over to BT at the originating end (e.g. north of England), they'd have to pay BT approx 3 x as much to terminate the call (in technical speak, they'd pay "Double Tandem Long" instead of "Local Exchange Segment" charging).

Well if that's true - then why do Telewest et al charge us more for calling 0870 numbers than geographic numbers? Surely it would be the other way round, no. But it isn't. And that's why we're here debating it now.

Excellent news from bbb_uk about mobile network donations - thanks, and well done.

bbb_uk

dag wrote:

....Well if that's true - then why do Telewest et al charge us more for calling 0870 numbers than geographic numbers? Surely it would be the other way round, no. But it isn't. And that's why we're here debating it now.

I think what bunking_off was saying that if it is a geographical call then telewest could keep the call on their network (cheaper for them) for as long as possible (until it reaches the destination area) and then goes onto BT network but an 0870 number dialled from a telewest phone would leave the telewest network from where the call originates (because Telewest don't know where the call is meant to be routed) and passed over to BT for handling and therefore as BT is carrying most of the call (if not all of it practically) then BT would possibly charge telewest near enough what BT charge their own customers (nearly 8ppm daytime) and therefore Telewest add a penny or so on to make a profit from the call.

Remember that because of revenue-sharing, 084x/087x charges are probably set by OfCOM (but only on BT as OfCOM are not able to set prices on other landline providers) to ensure the telecom company that owns this number (not necessarily BT) still gets their cut as well as the company (or in this case the government) also get their cut.

Does this make sense?

bunking_off

bbb_uk

Yes, that's about right.

At least for fixed line telephony, price regulation tends only to apply to BT, though defacto it knocks onto other operators due to reciprocity arrangements.

On calls to BT geo numbers, operators such as C&W or Telewest pay BT a termination fee, based upon the number of elements used (how many exchanges the call traverses), plus a regulated margin. How much BT pays C&W or Telewest in reverse (ie calls to C&W / Telewest numbers) is a bit of a wierd arrangement but it follows the same principles. So, conceptually the terminating operator is paid on a "cost plus" basis, while the originating operator receives "retail minus costs". This means that for a geo call, Telewest would typically charge a rate that covers their termination rate to BT (<1ppm) plus their own network costs.

On calls to non-geo numbers, what tends to happen is that for 0845/70, for calls from BT lines you start with BT's retail tariff, and BT are allowed to retain a regulated amount of money (once again based upon the number of network elements traversed, but this time with an allowance for bad debt etc). The 0870 network provider is given the rest. So, conceptually the money is divvied up in the opposite way to geo, with the terminating operator paid on a "retail minus costs" basis, while the originating operator receives "cost plus".

Now - are you still with me? - for calls from e.g. Telewest lines destined for say a C&W 0870 number, what happens is that C&W expect to receive the same as they do from BT. However, Telewest aren't regulated on their "retention". So, in order to pay C&W the same amount, Telewest can get away with charging slightly more at a retail level. How much more they charge is largely a matter of how much they think they can get away with without their customers drifting back to BT....ie competition at work.

I haven't got the price lists in front of me, but based upon retail tariffs I'd *guess* that Telewest need to pay out 6-7ppm peak, and their retail tariff has to cover the cost of that plus using their network. So, to answer dag's question, they do have lower costs in their own network for carrying 0870 calls versus geo calls, as they'll only have to carry the call a short distance, but this is swamped by the higher amount they need to pay out to get the call terminated.

This accounting mechanism is why you don't tend to see big price discounts on 0870. Even the likes of 18866 ultimately have to pay out the same to terminate the call so they can't cut their retail tariffs much. On the few occasions where 0870/0845 are at a low cost on some small operator or other, you can generally rely on the fact that some network operator has fouled up their wholesale pricing and opened up an arbitrage possibility.

For 0844 and 0871 and 090, incidentally, things are slightly different again. In this case, the principles are largely the same as for 0845/71, but the terminating operator sets what they want their receipts to be, and that ripples through to what the retail tariff is.

Complicated? Yes, nothing's simple in telecoms. I'd also highlight that these arrangements have been subject to one dispute or another at Oftel/com for 10 years now, and counting. It isn't difficult to see why....