Subsidence - when buying and selling?

neverdespairgirl

Doozergirl wrote: »

Sloping floors will concern people and it would be better if they weren't doing that! You can jack them up from underneath but you will need full access to the joists from underneath which may mean ripping up boards or ripping down ceilings.

It depends why they are sloping.

There are a couple of upstairs floors in my parents' house with serious slopes - the furniture all ends up at that side of the room. However, the slopes were caused by water damage when the house was left empty - in the 1550s. The slopes have survived OK for nearly 500 years (-:

TTMCMschine

Debt_Free_Chick wrote: »

There are specialist insurers that will look "more favourably" on properties with a history of subsidence. And the existing insurer will offer you insurance. Mortgage shouldn't be a problem ... depends on the type of subsidence and the work done so far.

HTH

As debt free chick says, the existing insurers will insure the house. I used to work in a homes insurance department of a large firm. All insurers (should still be the case), have a gentleman's agreement that they continue to insure the a property that has been underpinned, when it changes ownership. In fact they didn't bat an eyelid. The things on a survey that concerned them more were potential causes of subsidence. So on a basic surveyor's report, if there are loads of tree near the property they would be concerned about that, because of the roots. If a tree had been recently chopped down they would be concerned as well, they wanted to know if it had been chopped down by a specialist. I say tree as an example, because that seemed to be the biggest problem,

whirlwind

Adread -

I spoke to a friend who spoke to a friend who was head of underwriting at a large home insurer. This is what they said we should do, and some info -

a) there is an ABI agreement, as others have said that insurance companies continue to cover houses with subsidence. this is a code of practice and not legally enforceable. but say if you look at the flooding it takes a lot before a company will stop insuring someone (they just put the prices up, and you can go no where else). there are a few specialist companies who cover underpinned houses. houses with possible ongoing subsidence, generally no one except the current insurer will touch them.

b) can you actually see any movement now - even if you can't I'd get a structural engineers report (about £300). the sellers may pay for this. Ideally if it's the same engineers who did it before.

c) get the sellers to write to their insurance company to say what work has been done on the house, they should then show you a copy of this letter via their solicitors. I'd also ask to see copies of their current cover, so you can see how much they're paying for cover and who the insurer is. you can also get a quote for continuing the cover. they won't tell you about past details of the current cover, but should tell you if it's in a subsidence risk area (often very large areas).

d) if you are worried there may be work needed now, get the sellers to make a claim. a structural engineer will come around and assess the claim. if there is no claim, it just gets closed. if there is a claim, if it's work that will take time, you can get the "proceeds of the claim" transferred to you. ie if there's no claim, if there is a claim on the same thing in the future, you are covered. if there is a claim, you're also covered in the future if the work is not good enough etc.

the insurer should cover any underpinning

inform your mortgage provider of the above. all of this could go via the solicitor if you're really worried about things, but others may say this is not necessary.

e) if you want some reassurance, after you have a the structural engineers report, try to get cover elsewhere. say 2 other quotes, to check you can get cover elsewhere. our quote for continued cover with a mainstream insurance who was continuing to cover a house with subsidence (but not yet underpinned) was £500 (including 40k contents and accidental damage cover)
you can find the main insurers offering specialist cover by searching for "home insurance", "underpinned" in google.

f) how old is the house?

g) is the house already reduced because of the underpinning? yes, you could negotiate on it, if you were not aware when you made your offer. we tried for £10k off and lost the house, because we did not go about it the wrong way I suppose - face to face with seller or via EA is best, imho, when you have all the information.

the seller is now desperate and asking for offers, after refusing to negotiate at all with us!

whirlwind

PS removing the cause of subsidence can sometimes lead to "heave" the opposite of subsidence so I'd really get proper advice from a structural engineer (not a surveyor, the engineers are more highly qualified)

Andread

whirlwind wrote: »

Adread -

I spoke to a friend who spoke to a friend who was head of underwriting at a large home insurer. This is what they said we should do, and some info -

a) there is an ABI agreement, as others have said that insurance companies continue to cover houses with subsidence. this is a code of practice and not legally enforceable. but say if you look at the flooding it takes a lot before a company will stop insuring someone (they just put the prices up, and you can go no where else). there are a few specialist companies who cover underpinned houses. houses with possible ongoing subsidence, generally no one except the current insurer will touch them.

b) can you actually see any movement now - even if you can't I'd get a structural engineers report (about £300). the sellers may pay for this. Ideally if it's the same engineers who did it before.

c) get the sellers to write to their insurance company to say what work has been done on the house, they should then show you a copy of this letter via their solicitors. I'd also ask to see copies of their current cover, so you can see how much they're paying for cover and who the insurer is. you can also get a quote for continuing the cover. they won't tell you about past details of the current cover, but should tell you if it's in a subsidence risk area (often very large areas).

d) if you are worried there may be work needed now, get the sellers to make a claim. a structural engineer will come around and assess the claim. if there is no claim, it just gets closed. if there is a claim, if it's work that will take time, you can get the "proceeds of the claim" transferred to you. ie if there's no claim, if there is a claim on the same thing in the future, you are covered. if there is a claim, you're also covered in the future if the work is not good enough etc.

the insurer should cover any underpinning

inform your mortgage provider of the above. all of this could go via the solicitor if you're really worried about things, but others may say this is not necessary.

e) if you want some reassurance, after you have a the structural engineers report, try to get cover elsewhere. say 2 other quotes, to check you can get cover elsewhere. our quote for continued cover with a mainstream insurance who was continuing to cover a house with subsidence (but not yet underpinned) was £500 (including 40k contents and accidental damage cover)
you can find the main insurers offering specialist cover by searching for "home insurance", "underpinned" in google.

f) how old is the house?

g) is the house already reduced because of the underpinning? yes, you could negotiate on it, if you were not aware when you made your offer. we tried for £10k off and lost the house, because we did not go about it the wrong way I suppose - face to face with seller or via EA is best, imho, when you have all the information.

the seller is now desperate and asking for offers, after refusing to negotiate at all with us!

The property seller says that it has been underpined, but having said that there is no report, and no records of building permission being sought with the local council. Therefore as far as the council are concerned it has been done illegally. If it had been done through the insurance company then it would probably have had the interior problems rectified at the same time, especialy if these problems had occured due to the subsidence. I could speak to the estate agents and ask them if they knoiw who insured the property when it was underpined, then see if the insurance company will speak to me.

But to be honest i can see me having to have it underpined, just so that i can sell it on in the future. Because if it has been done but not properley then it will need doing again and if i don't have it underpined but have the internal work done, then i may have problems with the walls cracking and floor board moving in the future. There are no trees near by, but there are two man hole covers about 6 and 8 feet away from the side wall of the property. But a lot of properties in this area are built on sand.

Thanks again to everyone for there advice.
All the best Andread

Doozergirl

Andread wrote: »

But to be honest i can see me having to have it underpined, just so that i can sell it on in the future. Because if it has been done but not properley then it will need doing again and if i don't have it underpined but have the internal work done, then i may have problems with the walls cracking and floor board moving in the future. There are no trees near by, but there are two man hole covers about 6 and 8 feet away from the side wall of the property. But a lot of properties in this area are built on sand.

Mate, you need a structural engineers report. You don't need to underpin a house that's already been underpinned if it isn't moving, you just need to address the other cosmetic issues. You really do need a structural engineer before you go about making any assumptions at all because (and I mean this nicely) you haven't got the foggiest what you're talking about!

Sand isn't a bad thing if it is containied. It's one of those things that will be incredibly sold if contained but almost liquid if not. There was an issue in our town a few years back where a huge water main leak caused a lot of sand to run away and many houses had to be unpinned.

Your structural engineer, if local will know all about the local ground make-up and all about local issues.

epz_2

looked at one that needed subsidance fixing once and ran screaming at the cost of repairs.

it wouldnt bother me but i would expect the place to be a fair bit cheaper if it was due to something like mine works

4APaul

About 5 years ago I viewed a 1960's 3 bedroomed semi needing a little updating but on a very nice estate in a nice area which commanded premium prices. When inside I looked out of the back windows and was immediately struck by the closeness of the semi mature trees in the rear garden and commented that there may be structures issues.

When later in the rear garden I saw several long diagonal cracks down the rear outside wall of the house wide enough to run a pencil down and varying 6-10 feet long. It was very clear that the house had serious structural issues due to the trees. Two other houses I had previously viewed on the same estate had shown no signs of cracking.

Later the estate agent rang me to see if I was interested in the house to which I replied I was not due to the serious cracking. There was then a surreal conversation whereby the estate agent denied there were any cracks at all and that such must be the case as their surveyor had not reported any. I replied that if they had surveyed the house then he did not get out of his car! I did not view houses with that well known national estate agent again.

In general I'd be very reluctant to buy a house with historic structural issues as the house insurance can be crippling. My own 1930's semi had repairs about nine years ago, just strapping of cracks to internal walls and the internal leaf of some external walls, no underpinning. The only tree in the garden was cut down. My house insurance is subsequently much higher than those of my neighbours houses. I've just had the renewal letter today for £640 (house and contents) and the level of this figure is what brought me onto this site to look for other comments. I've not found anyone else willing to insure the property and in such circumstances this barrage of 'I can insure cheaper than your current company' adverts can be really annoying when they aren't interested if you contact them and tell them their is a past subsidence claim.

Tadley

Hi,
I bought a house in 2006 knowing it has some structual movement on it.There is a crack in the rendering to front of house but is fine diagonal crack about 2mm wide and 1.2 meters long. It had been mentioned on valuation report and i also have buildings insurance which didnt require special subsidence policy. These houses are built on clay sandy soils which i think is the cause of the movement.This crack has not got worse since ive been there touch wood!. Im now thinking of selling and im worried that i wont be able to sell and keep thinking potential buyers may run for the hills.Should i drop my asking price? Also do i have to disclose this in a hips report or solicitor?:eek:

Fire_Fox

You mention the valuation, but what did your full structural survey or structural engineers report say? How do you know the crack has not worsened, is that your personal opinion or has it been monitored by a professional?