Just been served

king100

Been having a slight issue with our letting agency of a house we rent.

We have a assured shorthold tenancy agreement 12 months.

We are in the 13 month of renting the property.

It is meant to be a managed property.

Numerous issues have arisen in the last year and the agency doesnt really bother to do anything, ignoring our phone calls time after time after time.

So we delayed payment in December to see if this kick started them. Nothing has happened no calls ettc.

We then get a letter through the door asking us we want to sign another agreement for 12 months but with an increase in rent plus a fee for them to do the paperwork for the new agreement.

Now we have just been served with a notice requiring possession dated today expiring 25th March.

The tenancy agreement started Jan 17th 2007, today as you may know is the 24th.

On the letter was a note

"the length of the notice must be at least two months, and the notice must be given before or on the day on which the fixed term comes to an end"

Ok we didnt resign up for an additional 12 months we havent given notice of any sort.

Does this mean that the fixed term comes to an end on the 17th Jan 2008?

What exactly does this all mean?

king100

Am i correct in saying that two months notice needs to be served for the following next rent payment date.

eg.

We paid rent on the 17 th of the month, so by serving us today they have missed the 17th of January and 2 months after so this 2 months has to start from the next rental date being the 17th of Feb therefore giving us until the 16th April to vacate the property.

They cannot serve us and just give us 2 months notice from when it is served.

Doozergirl

king100 wrote: »

Am i correct in saying that two months notice needs to be served for the following next rent payment date.

eg.

We paid rent on the 17 th of the month, so by serving us today they have missed the 17th of January and 2 months after so this 2 months has to start from the next rental date being the 17th of Feb therefore giving us until the 16th April to vacate the property.

Yes you are.

You would have been able to vacate, without notice on the 16th January. They would still have had to give you full notice to leave on 16th January.

If you signed on 17th January 2007 then 16th April it is. Sheisters!

Doozergirl

Oh, and because they have got the Section 21 notice wrong, I think it means you don't even have to move out on 16th April. I think they would actually need to issue you with correct notice for it to stand up in court. So you'd get at least another two months.

king100

Because we are not paying them rent and havent paid since December due to the lack of actually management of the property what position do we stand in regards to paying rent?

Can they take us to court in the next 2 months or do they need us to vacate the property before that?

Another question do they need to cite grounds from which they are seeking this posession on the notice.

If so they would be seeking it under this i assume

"Ground 8 - This ground has been changed by the Housing Act 1996 and concerns arrears of rent. Arrears must exceed 8 weeks if the rent is paid weekly or fortnightly, 2 months if paid monthly, one full quarter if paid quarterly or 3 months if paid yearly. The maximum arrears in each case must exist both at the notice of proceedings and at the hearing itself. The ground must be clearly stated so that the tenant knows what he is responding to."

Since we havent paid Decembers or Januarys i guess that constitutes 2 months.

Doozergirl

You should never withold rent.

Once you are two months behind, they can apply to the courts to evict you.

It's no surprise you've been served notice if you haven't paid rent.

If there are works outstanding then you can follow a procedure whereby you write a lot of letters, the provide three quotes, then explain that you will have the work done yourself and deduct it from the rent. You must show that you have given the landlord reasonable time to rectify the situation AND provide a paper trail for that.

If you just don't pay the rent, you get served notice. And it doesn't help with your future references

Debt_Free_Chick

king100 wrote: »

Now we have just been served with a notice requiring possession dated today expiring 25th March.

The tenancy agreement started Jan 17th 2007, today as you may know is the 24th.

On the letter was a note

"the length of the notice must be at least two months, and the notice must be given before or on the day on which the fixed term comes to an end"

Ok we didnt resign up for an additional 12 months we havent given notice of any sort.

The tenancy or rent period runs from 17th day in one month to 16th day in the next month.

The fixed term in the original agreement expired on 16th January 2008.

As the fixed term has expired, you are now on a Statutory Periodic Tenancy. The main terms of the agreement still apply, but the notice periods are replaced by new ones.

Under an SPT, the LL must give you 2 months notice to quit (vacate) and you need only give one.

In each case, the notice period runs for 2 complete tenancy periods.

So the notice you've received should have given you 2 months notice, to start on 17 February and end on 16 April.

This is a s21 notice (s21 of Housing Act 1988 as amended by HA1996). The LL can simply issue this notice - he needs no grounds. It's a simple "I want to end the tenancy so here's 2 months notice".

Irrespective of the date of the letter, it should clearly state that the notice ends on 16 April. So ... I agree. The notice is not valid. Ignore it.

Because we are not paying them rent and havent paid since December due to the lack of actually management of the property what position do we stand in regards to paying rent?

You owe the rent. If you don't pay it, the LL can take you to Court separately. This will be action completely separate to taking possession of the property. If he takes you to Court, you'll end up with a CCJ and your credit record will be shot.

You have no grounds for witholding the rent - and doing so without being in negotiation over the repairs - has probably led to the s21 notice (although it's not valid).

Can they take us to court in the next 2 months or do they need us to vacate the property before that?

For the rent arrears? Yes (and they probably WILL, but it could take more than 2 months). Can they go to Court to evict you? No - well actually yes, but only once the notice has expired. And as the notice is wrong, they will lose in Court. But if the notice were valid, they could take you to Court if you didn't vacate at the end and they would win.

Another question do they need to cite grounds from which they are seeking this posession on the notice.

If so they would be seeking it under this i assume

"Ground 8 - This ground has been changed by the Housing Act 1996 and concerns arrears of rent.

If they were issuing notice under section 8 then yes, they need to state the grounds. Incidentally ..... there are 8 different Grounds under Section 8 (confusingly!).

For a section 21 notice - there are no grounds. It's just notice that the LL is not offering to extend the tenancy and, as you are now on an SPT, you are only entitled to 2 months (rent periods) notice to vacate.

Ignoring the rent arrears, you could have been served a s21 notice at any time, for no reason at all.

If you had had a valid notice and didn't vacate, then the LL would have to go to Court to have you evicted.

With a section 8, ground 8 notice - the LL still has to go to Court to evict you for not paying the rent. But if you pay some of it (to get you under 2 months arrears) before Court, then the Hearing cannot go ahead.

So ...... for LL's - if they want eviction, then s21 can be a quicker route. Many LL's issue both a s8 and a s21 notice for rent arrears, so that if you pay some of the arrears before the Court Hearing and refuse to vacate, they get the eviction order under s21 anyway.

Now then .... what do you want to do?

Attempt to negotiate for a new tenancy agreement?

Or find a new property?

You should start looking anyway as the LL may be so pee'd off, that he will not offer a new tenancy agreement under any circumstances. So looking for another property has to be your priority.

Paying the rent arrears is also a priority as you will lose in Court and get a CCJ ... which will make getting another property very difficult (and it will blow your credit record to pieces).

As for vacating? Sit tight. Wait for 25th March - when they think you should be out - and then tell them that the s21 was not valid. They will then issue another one and - if it's valid - it will run from 17 April to 16 June.

Just double check those dates in your tenancy agreement. And then check them again. If there seem to be two conflicting dates, post the precise wording here.

Debt_Free_Chick

Of course, if you find another property, you need only serve a valid s21 notice on the LL. Remember the dates - you can issue the notice at any time, but the period covered by the notice starts on the 17th day of the month following the date you issue it - and ends on the 16th of the next month.

Debt_Free_Chick

Doozergirl wrote: »

Oh, and because they have got the Section 21 notice wrong, I think it means you don't even have to move out on 16th April. I think they would actually need to issue you with correct notice for it to stand up in court. So you'd get at least another two months.

That's right - they will lose in Court if the s21 notice is wrong.

Just for information ......


The Court WILL issue a Possession Order to the LL, if the LL has given the tenant a valid notice under s21. The SPT comes to an end on the date that the Order is effective, so the tenant then has absolutely no rights at all in relation to the property.

The Order is the LL's legal permission to send in the bailiffs; remove all the tenant's property; and to secure the property usually by changing the locks. More often than not, the LL will simply open up and change the locks, leaving the tenant's property inside. It takes about 10 minutes! :eek:

And the tenant then has to make arrangements with the LL to recover their property ... and probably pay any expenses incurred by the LL for the inconvenience.

So .... if you've been given a s21 notice, you'd better make arrangements to move out, under your own steam.

provided the notice is valid, of course. But even if it's not valid, you'll be moving out at a later date, anyway

moneysavinmonkey

king100 wrote: »

Now we have just been served with a notice requiring possession dated today expiring 25th March.

The tenancy agreement started Jan 17th 2007, today as you may know is the 24th.

On the letter was a note

"the length of the notice must be at least two months, and the notice must be given before or on the day on which the fixed term comes to an end"

Ok we didnt resign up for an additional 12 months we havent given notice of any sort.

Does this mean that the fixed term comes to an end on the 17th Jan 2008?

What exactly does this all mean?

Just to confirm as you didn't actually state it but what type of posession notice was it ... did it mention section 21 or section 8??

You are playing a very dangerous game by withholding rent - the likely outcome is the repairs still won't get done and you will get evicted + pursued for the unpaid rent. What repairs need doing?

Did you follow the correct procedure??

see:
http://england.shelter.org.uk/advice/advice-4081.cfm#wipLive-13074-3

Step 1: report the repairs to the landlord in writing and allow time for them to be done. Keep a copy.
Step 2: write to your landlord again, explaining that you intend do the work yourself and take the costs out of your rent unless the repairs are done within a certain time (eg. two weeks). Keep a copy. See sample letter 1.
Step 3: once this time has passed, get three quotes/estimates for the work from reliable contractors
Step 4: send the quotes to your landlord with a letter explaining that you are going to go ahead with the cheapest quote unless your landlord arranges for the repairs to be done within a certain time (eg. a further two weeks). See sample letter 2.
Step 5: once this time has passed, if your landlord hasn't responded, arrange for the work to be done by the contractor that gave the cheapest quote
Step 6: pay for the work yourself and send a copy of the receipt to your landlord, asking them to refund the money. See sample letter 3.
Step 7: if your landlord does not give you back the money, write and confirm that you are going to deduct the money from your future rent. Explain exactly when the deductions will start and how long you will withhold rent for. See sample letter 4.

king100

Hi debt_free_chick

Thanks for all your advice, I have been reading with interest and take your comments on board.

We have not reacted to the Section 21 notice yet but was intending to write to them stating that its not valid anyway, re dates rent due etc. Do you think this is a good idea?

I have had a message from the letting agents today advising that they have people who want to come and view the property - do you know where we stand legally in terms of allowing access?

I know I will have to allow viewings but don;t really want them to happen now - would prefer it say a month before the notice expired (which at the very least should be 16th April) I have a small child and am busy working from home so don't really want strangers trekking in the house too.

As for getting another place to live, we already have somewhere else, so this is not a heavy concern. From our point of view its about them not doing something else right with this tenancy. As discussed, legally, they have to give us the 2 months, according to original end date (16th) and they can't even do that right. We don't need to fight them over this but we feel we have not been treated properly in accordance to a "managed property".

Thank you.