TUPE and Redudancy procedures/timescale questions

mggirl

Hope someone can give me advice as I'm feeling rather confused by my husband's job position.

On Mon he brought home a letter telling him that the company he works for was being sold and contracts had been exchanged the previous Friday.
As a result he would transfer to the new company under TUPE sometime during the 1st full week of Feb.
- On headed paper/signed from his current employer

Yesterday he brought home another letter which informed him that his job would be a risk and there was a possibility that his job might be redudant.
- On headed paper/signed from his potential new employer.

Today, a 3rd letter, telling him that he had the lowest score on the redundancy criteria selection process and he is reqd to attend a meeting next Tuesday with his current boss and his potential new boss.
On headed paper/signed by his potential new employer.

His current firm is small, approx 15 employees.

My questions are :
1) Can this redundancy process be started while he's still employed by his existing company ? Or should this process happen he's transferred ?

2) Why are the letters coming from the new company if the sale contract is only exchanged and not completed ?

3) What should be asking at the Tuesday meeting and does he have to sign anything ? Does he have to provide them with anything in writing either at that meeting or shortly after ?

4) Is he entitled to 12 weeks notice for redundancy or is that different when it's TUPE ? (25+ years continous servce)
Will he be entitled to Payment in Lieu of notice ?


I appreciate that TUPE is complicated (as I've found by browsing over the last couple of days) and plan to contact ACAS in the morning, but all help/guidance gratefully received.

I want to support him the best I can, and provide him with the right information.
The whole thing stinks, but trying to be professional about it.

Many thanks
MGgirl

Debt_Free_Chick

mggirl wrote: »

1) Can this redundancy process be started while he's still employed by his existing company ? Or should this process happen he's transferred ?

Not sure - but see (2)

2) Why are the letters coming from the new company if the sale contract is only exchanged and not completed ?

It's unusual to talk about contracts being exchanged and then completed in relation to a company sale. Often there are "heads of agreement" which is an agreement in principle; followed by investigation (due diligence) and then completion. I think he needs to check what's happened here.

It does sound as though his employment has been transferred, in which case it would be right that the new employer is instigating the redundancy consultation process.

3) What should be asking at the Tuesday meeting and does he have to sign anything ? Does he have to provide them with anything in writing either at that meeting or shortly after ?

I think he should listen and take notes. I doubt he will be asked to make any decisions at that meeting - and if he is, he should simply ask for time to "take this all in and think about it". They will probably just explain the process - that they will consult with employees and attempt to find them alternative work, within the company. He might be asked if there's another job he'd like to do - but he can ask to go away and think about it.

The important thing is that this is not a disciplinary meeting. He is not there to defend himself. He's there to listen to what the company plans to do.

It's also important that he doesn't "fight for his job" - it's the postition that's being made redundant, not him personally - no matter how it might feel.

4) Is he entitled to 12 weeks notice for redundancy or is that different when it's TUPE ? (25+ years continous servce)

His entitlment is based on all his continuous service. That's the great thing about TUPE - it's as if he's been employed by the new company all along. All his rights and entitlements transfer to the new company.

Will he be entitled to Payment in Lieu of notice ?

Probably not, in addition to redundancy as the redundancy payment is an amount in lieu of notice.

However, what does his contract/terms and conditions of service say? It may give him an entitlement in addition to or greater than statutory redundancy.

Perhaps they'll go through his entitlement on Tuesday ....? Which is why he must be in "listening" mode - and take notes!

I appreciate that TUPE is complicated (as I've found by browsing over the last couple of days) and plan to contact ACAS in the morning, but all help/guidance gratefully received.

I want to support him the best I can, and provide him with the right information.

I think TUPE is quite straightforward here. Essentially, he gets exactly the same rights, options and money as he would have had, if the company had not been bought .... all 25 years worth.

The whole thing stinks, but trying to be professional about it.

'Tis business I'm afraid. The redundancy could have happened if the company had not been sold. Who knows what the business plan is, but it will be about making money. And let's face it, businesses need to make money to pay those who work for them. Best that he listens to what they have to say on Tuesday, when he ought to find out more.

It's happened to me so many times, I'm immune to it. And I work in HR (but on benefits, not employment) so I've seen the process "from the inside". Worth remembering too, that HR are "just messengers" - they don't decide on redundancies; they're just their to "do the dirty work".

HTH

mggirl

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond to all my q.

Reading back the q&a I guess my/our confusion stems from who he currently works or whether he's been transferred already.

1 letter from existing and all face to face comms from his current employer, but the last 2 letters from the new company.

The letters he's received state the terms 'exchange of contracts' happened with completion of the business/TUPE agreement in a couple of weeks.
So it has to be the new employer doing the redundancy when the the jobs have been transferred, ? Why then are bosses from both companies present at the meeting ?
We presumed these meetings/consultation would happen week after next.
It felt like they were ahead of themselves.
Solicitors from both sides are still involved, deciding final details.


We've accepted he's unlikely to get a job. People who are in the transfer company, doing the same jobs, are not receiving the letters about redundancy.
Which again confused me as I'd always presumed it was the job not the person that was redundant. Surely not in this instance if equivalent people are not going through the same process ?

Thanks again

Debt_Free_Chick

OK - the terms they've used are a little unusual, but perhaps they're trying to make things clearer for employees.

This probably explains why both bosses are attending the meeting .... as it could be either one that carries out the redundancy, so they're making sure they're covered either way!

In theory, the current employer can start the redundancy, he could then transfer under TUPE and the new employer can complete the process. It sounds like they're covering this event. Pretty sure that this is OK under TUPE. TUPE works both ways ... it gives the employees rights, but it gives the employers rights too (as well as obligations).

If he can be philosophical about this and "behave accordingly", he is more likely to be in a better negotiating position. No employer is going to put more money on the table for an ar8sy employee

They could well have "scored" the others in the same job. They need to have a fair scoring process. They don't have to reveal it, unless challenged in Court/Tribunal. But speak to ACAS about this point.

I try to think of the money in these situations and put myself in the best possible negotiating position. So do the research and persuade hubby to continue to behave as a "model employee".

Let us know how you get on and post back if there are other questions.

mggirl

We're working on the plan that he's going to be redundant, and we just want to get the correct (as many) pennies we can from it now by playing the game .

We've established today that he's still employed by his current firm and will be when he gets next weeks pay packet.

Will have to see what happens on Tuesday.

Thanks again
Have a nice weekend

Bigcammy

If possible, he should get someone to sit in on the meeting with him, a trusted colleague or if he's in a Union, a Union rep, though being such a small company there may be no union representation. He should be entitled to have someone in the meeting with him and it also helps at any later stage if there is an appeal.

mggirl

I must admit I did wonder about the benefit of having someone on 'his side' in the meeting that would be a witness to things said.

They've said that someone would be there to take notes. Is he entitled to ask for a copy ?

Debt_Free_Chick

mggirl wrote: »

I must admit I did wonder about the benefit of having someone on 'his side' in the meeting that would be a witness to things said.

They've said that someone would be there to take notes. Is he entitled to ask for a copy ?

I would be staggered if they didn't give him a draft, ask him to comment and then give him the final agreed version of the notes.

Although having someone there can be good for emotional support, remember this is not a disciplinary. It's for the company to explain the redundancy process and his options. No harm in asking for someone to accompany him though, if he wants that.

orlao

I don't know how old your husband is:D but with 25 years service I'd guess he's over 40....so he gets 2 weeks pay per year of service plus his pay in lieu of notice if they don't want him to work it!

The other thing is if he's near retirement age it might be worth asking for (enhanced!) early retirement. Most good pension schemes offer a tax free lump sum which could be more than a redundacy payment plus a pension.

In those circumstances it's also worth asking if the company will pay for an IFA to help compare the options! It's not just big multi nationals that will give these benefits but you often have to ask ! No harm in asking and remember...it really isn't personal...you have the right attitude and are out to get everything that you are able to get.....after all, the company has had 25 work from your husband and do owe him not just money but a fair settlement where he doesn't feel that he's been cheated in any way.

It's a stressful time but if you feel a little in control it seems to help IYKWIM
and I found redundancy to be a time to think, reorganise my priorities a little in between panic attacks:eek: about bills and once I had another job in the pipeline to have the longest time off since I left school:T

Hope it all works out ok.

mggirl

Well it goes on and the CAB were able to give little advice. So I'm back on here again ..

He had his meeting on Tues (10 mins). The meeting was taken a chap from the new company who was supposed to be taking notes. The guy (new co) who was going to take it took the notes and his boss sat there and said nothing.

They went through the 5 criteria and told him he passed on 3 and failed on 2; skills and flexibility. Reason given was that they would have to send him away for training to work the machine they already have.

He was told he get a letter on Wed (yesterday) outlining his redundancy and would have to appeal by Friday. His last day of work will be next Thurs.

It just seems so fast.

Is there a potential for unfair dismissal and if so, on what grounds ?

What should he write in a letter of appeal ?

When he was given the original letter, informing him of the sale and TUPE his boss said they decided to sell to this company as they would take the staff. Turned out not to be quite true I guess.

Thanks for taking the time to read.

mggirl

Update :

My H has jusy received his redundany letter today informing him that his last day of work will be this Friday 8th.
3 days notice for 27 years service - nice !

The letter is on headed paper for his existing company.

It states that any appeal must be placed by the 12th and adressed to both his employer and the new company.

Questions :

1) Does this mean that his current employer is making him redundant ahead of the TUPE ?

2) What should he write in his letter of appeal ?

Advice please