Caledonia Motor Group Gone Bust

keeptotherules

It seems the original thread has been removed. This is only done when someone breaks the forum rules. Please read the rules before posting as the original thread, with the exception of the idiots, was a good source of information for employees. The forum rules can be found below:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/faq.html?faq=new_faq_item#faq_new_rules

Do NOT name individuals or post information that may suggest in any way the identity of a forum user & do NOT make offensive comments

Keep to the rules when posting and threads will not be removed :T

StillInTheDark

Glad this subject is on again. Does anyone know if we are going to get paid our bonuses for hours sold in December? We have been told we are getting paid our normal wage but as of hometime at Friday teatime we didn't know about bonuses. Someone replied with what to do if we don't get all our December money but all the replies have disappeared, can whoever it was please reply agian with what to do if we don't get paid as we should. Thanks

excmg-gal

keeptotherules wrote: »

It seems the original thread has been removed. This is only done when someone breaks the forum rules. Please read the rules before posting as the original thread, with the exception of the idiots, was a good source of information for employees. The forum rules can be found below:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/faq.html?faq=new_faq_item#faq_new_rules

Do NOT name individuals or post information that may suggest in any way the identity of a forum user & do NOT make offensive comments

Keep to the rules when posting and threads will not be removed :T

Marleyboy deleted it, mayb he had good reason. (exposure)

tigtag02

Only the abuse team can delete a thread.

Redundant_2

StillInTheDark wrote: »

Glad this subject is on again. Does anyone know if we are going to get paid our bonuses for hours sold in December? We have been told we are getting paid our normal wage but as of hometime at Friday teatime we didn't know about bonuses. Someone replied with what to do if we don't get all our December money but all the replies have disappeared, can whoever it was please reply agian with what to do if we don't get paid as we should. Thanks

I was one of the people who replied to your question regarding pay.
My response is based on my own experience and I am not an employee
or ex-employee of your company, although this does not prohibit me
from posting.

I was made redundant in October 2007 as the company I worked for
went bust and the people who bought our company already had staff
with duplicate roles, I was therefore surplus to requirement and had to
make my claim for redundancy pay through the Insolvency Service.

Some colleagues were kept on but when they were paid they discovered they had only
been paid from the date of the take-over and were not paid the bonuses
they had earned. Some decided to move on to other jobs and made a
claim with the employment tribunals, staff who stayed on also made
claims. The incoming company tried to settle before the tribunals took
place but were unsuccessful.

In short they won their claims as it was ruled that the incoming employer
was responsible for wages owed under the TUPE regulations. There were
also compensation payments for unlawful deductions from wages.

More importantly in your own case wages, by law, isn’t just salary (see
below)

Transfer of an Insolvent Business

“Even if your employer can't pay you, they might want you to carry on working for them while they try to sell the business. If you decide to stay on and they're successful, the law protects your contract of employment, including any pay that's owed to you. If you continue working and your employer's business is transferred, the new owner takes over the obligation to pay what is owed to you. For the purposes of Legislation 'Pay' includes bonuses, commission, overtime, etc and guarantee payments. It also includes statutory payments for time off work, or suspension for medical or maternity reasons.”

Quote from:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/RedundancyAndLeavingYourJob/DG_10026695

Don’t be put off by the process, making a claim with an employment tribunal is very easy as my colleagues found out, and it can all be done online:

http://www.employmenttribunals.gov.uk/claim/claiming_responding.htm


Out of courtesy it is always best to try and resolve such matters with your employer first (this is by no means compulsory) but if you’re getting nowhere then you can proceed directly with a claim. Remember to retain any payslips and proof of bonuses etc that are due to you.

I wish you all the very best, especially those of you who have found yourself
subject to redundancy.

StillInTheDark

Our sales people have been told that they are not getting paid there comission for december so I cant see it being any different for workshop staff. I will wait to see what my wage is on the 31st and will definitely be making a claim if it isnt right, I got a £600 mortgage to pay.

DobYouIn

This whole matter has been handled abysmally. At no time whatsoever have either company fulfilled their legal obligations to properly consult employees under the TUPE laws. Staff should have been made aware of their rights to elect suitable representatives at the various sites for the purposes of proper communication and employee feedback/concerns. However, more on the current subject of non payment of wages due:


If the new company fail to pay what is owed by way of salary AND bonuses/commissions then they are in for a very rude awakening!

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Complaints about unlawful deductions and payments[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Any worker who considers that he or she has suffered an unlawful deduction from wages or been required to make an unlawful payment may seek redress by presenting a complaint to an Employment Tribunal. This applies regardless of the worker's length of service. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Such complaints must normally be made within three months of the date on which the wages were due to be paid (or, if that is not reasonably practicable, within such further period as the Tribunal considers reasonably practicable). In the case of a payment by the worker to the employer, the three months runs from the date on which the payment was received by the employer. In the case of a series of deductions or payments, the three months runs from the last deduction or payment in the series.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Meaning of 'wages'[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Wages, for the purposes of this legislation, are sums payable to the worker by his or her employer in connection with his or her job. They include:[/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]any fees, bonuses, commission, holiday pay or other payments in connection with the worker's job;[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]statutory payments such as Statutory Sick Pay and Statutory Maternity Pay; and[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]luncheon vouchers, gift tokens and other vouchers of a fixed monetary value that can be exchanged for money, goods or services.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Disputes as to whether or not the employer has correctly calculated the gross amount of wages due are matters to be settled under the law of contract in the civil courts or alternatively, if the employment has ended, in the employment tribunals. However, if the employer makes a deliberate decision not to pay some part or all of the wages due under the worker's contract, then this counts as a deduction and the worker can complain to an employment tribunal under the legislation on unlawful deductions from wages.[/FONT]

excmg-gal

DobYouIn wrote: »

This whole matter has been handled abysmally. At no time whatsoever have either company fulfilled their legal obligations to properly consult employees under the TUPE laws. Staff should have been made aware of their rights to elect suitable representatives at the various sites for the purposes of proper communication and employee feedback/concerns. However, more on the current subject of non payment of wages due:


If the new company fail to pay what is owed by way of salary AND bonuses/commissions then they are in for a very rude awakening!

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Complaints about unlawful deductions and payments[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Any worker who considers that he or she has suffered an unlawful deduction from wages or been required to make an unlawful payment may seek redress by presenting a complaint to an Employment Tribunal. This applies regardless of the worker's length of service. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Such complaints must normally be made within three months of the date on which the wages were due to be paid (or, if that is not reasonably practicable, within such further period as the Tribunal considers reasonably practicable). In the case of a payment by the worker to the employer, the three months runs from the date on which the payment was received by the employer. In the case of a series of deductions or payments, the three months runs from the last deduction or payment in the series.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Meaning of 'wages'[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Wages, for the purposes of this legislation, are sums payable to the worker by his or her employer in connection with his or her job. They include:[/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]any fees, bonuses, commission, holiday pay or other payments in connection with the worker's job;[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]statutory payments such as Statutory Sick Pay and Statutory Maternity Pay; and[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]luncheon vouchers, gift tokens and other vouchers of a fixed monetary value that can be exchanged for money, goods or services.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Disputes as to whether or not the employer has correctly calculated the gross amount of wages due are matters to be settled under the law of contract in the civil courts or alternatively, if the employment has ended, in the employment tribunals. However, if the employer makes a deliberate decision not to pay some part or all of the wages due under the worker's contract, then this counts as a deduction and the worker can complain to an employment tribunal under the legislation on unlawful deductions from wages.[/FONT]

This may not apply to a company n administration. I know it does apply to normal takeovers. If your Dealership is one of those been taken over then the new employers must come to an agreement to pay all that is due to you or Caledonia must honour it. However, these payments can only be made by CMG if they have paid their preferential creidtors first, i.e. HMRC etc. I doubt there will be anythng left in the pot!!!!!!!!

DobYouIn

The deal that has been done is subject to TUPE laws and is classed as "transfer of an insolvent business" - I refer to the earlier posting:

Transfer of an Insolvent Business

“Even if your employer can't pay you, they might want you to carry on working for them while they try to sell the business. If you decide to stay on and they're successful, the law protects your contract of employment, including any pay that's owed to you. If you continue working and your employer's business is transferred, the new owner takes over the obligation to pay what is owed to you. For the purposes of Legislation 'Pay' includes bonuses, commission, overtime, etc and guarantee payments. It also includes statutory payments for time off work, or suspension for medical or maternity reasons.”

Many staff agreed to work during negotiations and the incoming employer has already agreed to pay wages from 1st Jan (wages that were due by Caledonia) and would not have done this unless they were legally obliged to do so; they initially said they were not going to pay up, but have obviously since been made aware of their legal obligation to do so. It would appear that they think wages just means basic salary - the law however gives a clear definition of "wages" as shown above.

Had the take-over not have taken place then the onus would have been on the individual to claim via the insolvency service and claim forms would have been issued. And any payments would not come from CMG (they are potless) claims would have been paid through the government fund in place for such situations (I've been there before!) and any employees owed wages DO become preferential creditors and go to the top of the list - but this is all academic, the obligation is now upon the incoming employer to pay wages owed under TUPE and the transfer of insolvent businesses.

All people can do is to bide their time until wages are paid, see what they have been paid, and to then proceed accordingly should they so wish

I'm only due a couple of hundred quid on top of my basic salary, but some are owed quite a bit more. If I'm not paid in full then I for one will definitely be making a claim.

Some may think that pursuing claims for unpaid bonus with tribunals etc may not do your future prospects any good, but if they're not willing to pay what I've earned, and have worked for, then I'm not all that sure that I want to be working for them anyway!

excmg-gal

[
All people can do is to bide their time until wages are paid, see what they have been paid, and to then proceed accordingly should they so wish

I'm only due a couple of hundred quid on top of my basic salary, but some are owed quite a bit more. If I'm not paid in full then I for one will definitely be making a claim.

Some may think that pursuing claims for unpaid bonus with tribunals etc may not do your future prospects any good, but if they're not willing to pay what I've earned, and have worked for, then I'm not all that sure that I want to be working for them anyway![/quote]

Good for you, I know when I was made redundant I had to fight for my money which made the experience much worst than it already was and nobody seemed to take that into consideration, I was just a payroll number. You go for it and I wish you every success. I worked as a loyal employee fo CMG for many many years, loved every minute of it (except for my final weeks) and I feel for all of you now. This may seem a terrible thing to say right now but now I know how lucky I am to be out whilst this is all going on.

luckyexie

With regards to excmg-gal, I've probably worked with you and know you quite well. I agree with what you say. It's a sad time for all our ex colleagues and I hope they all realise that there has to be better to come. Good luck to you all.