Posting items from work - not recommended MoneySaving...

bob_man_uk

I dont agree that giving the guy the boot was the best option to go for, however he deserved what was coming to him.

however under normal procedures you would think that he would have been given a warning/caution... disciplinary if you will, this coupled with paying back the £600 or taking a pay cut should have been punishment enough. Im sure there are loopholes but i thought it was law to have a disciplinary levels before you could give someone the sack... then again the magnitude of the situation probably forced the powers that be into a situation where they could force the employee to leave... im sure if he wanted to he could contest it... guilt will probably stop him.

Cute_'n'_Quirky

bob_man_uk wrote: »

I dont agree that giving the guy the boot was the best option to go for, however he deserved what was coming to him.

however under normal procedures you would think that he would have been given a warning/caution... disciplinary if you will, this coupled with paying back the £600 or taking a pay cut should have been punishment enough. Im sure there are loopholes but i thought it was law to have a disciplinary levels before you could give someone the sack... then again the magnitude of the situation probably forced the powers that be into a situation where they could force the employee to leave... im sure if he wanted to he could contest it... guilt will probably stop him.

This was THEFT and theft is stealing

Would you continue to employ someone who stole from you?

StaffsSW

Poppy9 wrote: »

and I sense you are quite pleased with yourself.

Not really - it's either me doing my job properly, or letting him continue with the deceipt. No contest really...

I made this post after a question on postage on another thread, and posting goods from work has been brought up before on these threads.

I'm thinking of his poor wife and children. The upset this will cause in the household and how they will suffer. He will struggle to get any other employment with this black mark and will become a burden on the state as he has to rely on benefits.

It's a shame he did not think of his "poor wife and kids" when he embarked on this. He tried the emotional blackmail on us during the hearing, and guess how far it got him? Are you saying that theft is acceptable if it keeps the family happy? Is theft ever right? Are you trying to justify criminal behaviour with emotional methodology? If I had my way, he would not be entitled to benefits either.

He is lucky that we simply dismissed him, and have not pressed criminal charges as well. It was down to his manager to decide whether charges should be brought, but he decided against it.

There is obvioulsy poor management and lack of office procedures if this scale of abuse of postage can go unnoticed for at least 3 months. Has the business really gained from dismissing him?

The offices have day to day customer service issues to manage, postal expenditure is managed centrally - which is why we have quarterly site financial and operational audits. The business has potentially gained £600 over the next 3 months from dismissing him.

Will it deter others? In the short-term yes but unless you tighten up systems then it will happen again, even if it is on a smaller scale.

Certainly made a lot of people think when an all personnel email was sent, and an announcement that I am now analysing postal trends within the business. The odd birthday card and bill we can live with, but in our business there is no reason to send anything larger than a Large Letter. It's not hard to extrapolate the billing data from franking machines and start to pinpoint potential issues. Believe me - it WON'T be happening again.

If he had remained in the company's employment no doubt he would have turned into a model employee eager to prove he is keeping his nose clean and working hard.

And what makes you the expert on behavioural psychology of employees in my business? How can you emphatically make that claim?
Integrity is the cornerstone of our business, and that is drummed into every employee from the first day of their employ. There are no second chances when it comes to dishonesty, and that too is made clear from day one.
How many criminals re-offend when they are released from prison? A thief is a thief, and rehabilitation takes much longer than a 20 minute disciplinary hearing. As it turns out, I am looking at his fuel card spend, and for a driver of a diesel car, he was using a lot of petrol...

Who can honestly say they have never abused work facilities. It could be that you are surfing the net in work time on a work PC, if you work in an office the stationery that finds it way out of the office, especially pens. Buying goods with staff discount for family and friends. Then if you are a serious ebay seller, how many declare this income to the taxman?

There is a distinct difference between lifting a pen, and lifting £600 worth of postage. Besides, we have a a very attractive staff discount package that covers hundreds of products and services, none of which are taxable. And yes, I am a serious ebay seller, I am in the process of registering as a Ltd business from a Sole trader, I am on first name terms with my tax office.

Anything else you would like to question?

Or if you wish to employ a thief, a blatant liar, someone who is untrustworthy and dishonest, I could recommend someone....

bob_man_uk

Cute_n_Quirky wrote: »

This was THEFT and theft is stealing

Would you continue to employ someone who stole from you?

it depends, if someone had taken something in the style the guy had done then i would be inclined to go through the processes i mentioned... if the guy had been taking laptops for example and sneaking them out of the building in his briefcase then i would have him hung and birched... i dont see things so black and white, like most people have said they feel sorry for the guy and he should have been given a chance to redeem himself, and having to take a paycut or payback £600 is actually a very tough pill to swallow and would actually cause someone to think twice before doing the same again.

StaffsSW

Ok, just as a slght aside from the postal issue, a previous investigation I worked on proved that somebody had overstated their revenue fgures by £300k in a 2 month period - when some of the sites are taking £1m a month, this was just enough to push them into bonus territory, but not enough to look too far out of place.

2 employees earned nearly £10k in revenue bonuses due to this and they put under disciplinary procedures, although both resigned with immediate notice....

So the question I ask - just because it is under the guise of a corporate crime and financial irregularity, is it still theft??

(Another muppet who was placing customers' refunds on his own credit card was fired, charged, and jailed however....!)

carolinosourus

I work in a small but very successful business and if one of our employees had been doing this it would have crippled us (ok we would have noticed it sooner but only because we have very few employees!). There is never any excuse for theft and hopefully an example will have been made of him to deter anyone else. And as was pointed out, it is more convenient than going to the post office but the employee in question could have put money into the petty-cash to pay for it and still got a lower rate than going to the post office!
I mean, how long did he think he'd get away with it? Did he not think he'd get caught? ARROGANT?
And I totally agree, he should have thought about his family before he commited quite a lot of theft. And there's a big difference between walking off with a pen from work (but we only use freebies we get through marketing etc so that doesn't matter) and then walking out with £600, which is basically what he was doing!
It would have amounted to £2100 over a year if he carried on at the same rate which is a lot of money!

Pennywise

bob_man_uk wrote: »

and having to take a paycut or payback £600 is actually a very tough pill to swallow and would actually cause someone to think twice before doing the same again.

Really? I don't think so. How can simply being made to pay back the money he stole be a punishment or deterrent. He would be no worse off than had he paid the postage himself as he should have done!!

A real deterrent would have been to repay the £600 PLUS the total costs of the auditor and management time (i.e. full cost inc benefits, holidays, etc)., a demotion back to the lowest possible level in the company, etc! Presumably under employment law, he would find some way of claiming compensation as no doubt it would be illegal to deduct the auditor and management costs from his wages and no doubt it would be constructive dismissal to demote him.

Theft is a sackable offence - he is damned lucky to get off so lightly - a criminal record would have been even worse for him!

rare_stuff

No one has really mentioned the other victims of this mans crime, he's lucky he just got the sack, the company would well be within their rights to launch a criminal prosecution.

As a full time internet seller finding other sellers selling similair goods at unprofitable prices has become more common, and I have a RM account so get the best postage rates possible (which I share with my customers by pricing competitively). People like this make my business difficult to remain in profit, yet as a victim of this crime I can only applaud the business for having a strict policy and carrying it out. This sort of thing should be publicised to stop others theiving from their employer, and in many cases the tax-payer.

I once worked for local government and in the office was a guy who got sacked/disciplined/prosecuted, he was not only sacked but forced to repay almost every penny of the the 8grand he was said to owe from fiddling fuel, phone, postage, internet and the time he was logged as surfing for holidays and ebay stuff whilst he was meant to be working.

greenstreetprince

Poppy9 wrote: »

I'm thinking of his poor wife and children. The upset this will cause in the household and how they will suffer.

what a shame he couldnt think of his family and children when he was stealing from his employers.

Poppy9 wrote: »

He will struggle to get any other employment with this black mark....

what a shame he couldnt think of his career when he was stealing from his employers.

Poppy9 wrote: »

...will become a burden on the state as he has to rely on benefits

judging by the amount of money he'd spent on postage, he's most definitely got alot of sales going on ebay, is he entitled to state benefits with that much money coming in??

Poppy9

stevew8975 wrote: »

Not really - it's either me doing my job properly, or letting him continue with the deceipt. No contest really...

I made this post after a question on postage on another thread, and posting goods from work has been brought up before on these threads.

did you really need to include the fact he pleaded for his job or that he was last seen getting on a bus crying? Wouldn't it have been sufficent to just say an employee was caught and sacked. The embellishment came over as gloating and aroused sympathy for him as a human being who had made a big mistake and for his family who would now suffer. I feel sympathy for the families of killers sent to jail. They are innocent of any crime but they suffer the worst fallout.

stevew8975 wrote:

It's a shame he did not think of his "poor wife and kids" when he embarked on this. He tried the emotional blackmail on us during the hearing, and guess how far it got him?

you started with the emotional stuff about him pleading, crying etc. I agree it's a shame he didn't think of his family while committing the thefts but you have to be quite hard hearted not to feel for his family who will now suffer. If I was the person sacking him I would feel dreadful about how his family are going to suffer and it would play on my mind for months.

stevew8975 wrote:

Are you saying that theft is acceptable if it keeps the family happy? Is theft ever right?

you seem to think it's okay for the theft of one stamp but not 100 stamps. Is there a difference if theft is never right? Should the punishment be in relation to the turnover of the business, the manner of the theft, the personal circumstances of the thief? Courts of law seem to think so. Personal circumstances are taken into account.

stevew8975 wrote:

Are you trying to justify criminal behaviour with emotional methodology? If I had my way, he would not be entitled to benefits either.

would you deny them to his family too? Lets kick them while they are down. Happy New Year - they won't forget 2008 in a hurry!

stevew8975 wrote:

He is lucky that we simply dismissed him, and have not pressed criminal charges as well. It was down to his manager to decide whether charges should be brought, but he decided against it.

and often the reason that employers do not press charges is because it shows up failures in their systems for which managers have to answer questions. Well that's how it works in Local Govt. If they don't want the public to know of their failings they discipline on the QT.

stevew8975 wrote:

The offices have day to day customer service issues to manage, postal expenditure is managed centrally - which is why we have quarterly site financial and operational audits. The business has potentially gained £600 over the next 3 months from dismissing him.
Certainly made a lot of people think when an all personnel email was sent, and an announcement that I am now analysing postal trends within the business.

I work for a LA. Staff are reminded on an almost weekly basis of acceptable and not acceptable use of Council resources and how it's monitored. I know IA have monthly exception reports on telephone use, internet use etc. We have monthly budget monitoring which automatically flags up %age overspend from a profiled budget. Staff electronic clocking in/out is monitored monthly, travel expenses go through 2 levels of management approval before being paid. Schools are subjected to frequent check ups from IA who even look at their £50 imprest accounts. Systems & controls are in place and staff are in no doubt that it's being constantly monitored. E-mail, electronic notice boards and weekly team briefings have made it easier to make all staff aware of systems and controls (or Big Brother watching you!). I've worked in finance offices for over 20 years and I can't recall any recent thefts in the last 10 years. Prior to this there were a few. All where there was no division of duty and one "trusted" member of staff had sole responsibilty for cash handling/banking.

stevew8975 wrote:

The odd birthday card and bill we can live with, ...........

And what makes you the expert on behavioural psychology of employees in my business? How can you emphatically make that claim?
Integrity is the cornerstone of our business, and that is drummed into every employee from the first day of their employ. There are no second chances when it comes to dishonesty, and that too is made clear from day one.
How many criminals re-offend when they are released from prison? A thief is a thief, and rehabilitation takes much longer than a 20 minute disciplinary hearing. ...

I've worked with people who've been given 2nd chances and mostly they have become model employees. All had difficult personal circumstances at the time and although this should be no excuse people are affected by stress and breavement. They were deeply ashamed. I've also seen people sacked for lesser offences because their face didn't fit.