What to submit for hearing?

Coupon-mad

is your local Court Manchester?

Or not a million miles away? SIP only attend court in their area.

GuineaPog

Unfortunately yes.

Coupon-mad

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82114864#Comment_82114864

Not a bad thing in fact (the judges there are great re parking cases) but it means the hearing will take place.

It also means you'll be pushing against an open door re the added £60 false costs.

😀

GuineaPog

Thank you, much rather not have to attend at all for all the stress this has caused, but good to know it's judges who are used to it. 😀

So in terms of writing the witness statement, is the one on page 4 of this Horizon/Gladstone Witness Statement (Case Dismissed) a good starting point, amending for my points and weaving in the suggestions above? Or is there another which is similar to my case?

Thank you for your help with this by the way, it's very much appreciated.

Coupon-mad

Yes, use that one by JackR1 and make sure you include the exact words about HHJ Moloney and provide his transcript as an exhibit, because we hope you get the best judge: DJ Iyer and we REALLY want him to read that judgment!

😁

GuineaPog

Will have a look, thank you for confirming that to start with.

Am I allowed to confirm judge? The last letter states which judge has considered the statements, so if this is the judge for the day then I know who it is.

First Q, do I omit this as I had more detail than what they appear to have had on their case? Or do I put the full statement of them.

MrJenkinsEsq

On the new particulars. One day they'll write particulars that make sense... but it is not this day.

Para 1 "not permitted" vs para 8 consideration period: non entitlement to park cannot coexist with a period allowed to decide whether to park.

Para 1 "grace period" vs para 8 "consideration period": different Code concepts, entry and exit; the charge is pleaded on one, the facts on the other.

Para 2 pay and display vs para 7 ANPR: two different enforcement systems, neither reconciled.

Para 3 "pay and display ticket" vs paras 9 and 11 "parking session": different products, different evidence.

Para 3 three modes of permission (ticket, phone, permit) vs para 9 two (permit, session): the phone route drops out without explanation.

Para 4 "did not possess" vs para 3 "fully displaying": possession is not the pleaded condition.

Para 4 "possess ... ticket nor permit" vs para 9 "did not have any permit ... failed to purchase a parking session": same breach pleaded twice in different terms.

Para 7 entry time only vs para 8 consideration period exceeded: no exit time, so no duration, so nothing to exceed.

Para 8 defendant considers the contract vs para 10 defendant is keeper: keeper is pleaded as the person on site and as the person not on site.

Para 9 breach by the defendant vs para 11 breach by whoever parked: para 10 says the defendant is keeper, not driver, so the two paragraphs assign the breach to different persons.

Para 12 PoFA adhered to vs para 7 no period of parking pleaded: para 9(2)(a) cannot have been met on the facts pleaded.

Para 12 PoFA vs para 2 pay and display: NTD-then-NTK (para 8) or NTK-only (para 9) is undetermined, so "adhered to" has no identified mechanism.

Para 9 "did not have any permit" vs para 3 display condition: breach pleaded as non-possession, condition is non-display. Wrong breach, and a fact outside the Claimant's knowledge; only non-display is observable.

A permit is a licence, and a licence is held by a person. Paras 4 and 9 plead the vehicle or the defendant as not possessing one; the vehicle cannot hold a licence at all, and the defendant, pleaded as keeper, is not pleaded as the person who would have needed to.

And throughout the vehicle is attributed personhood.

GuineaPog

Thank you @MrJenkinsEsq

This version of the POC at least didn't have special characters inserted in random places 😀

So the part where I need to understand is how to use this, does this need to go into the witness statement? Apologies, law is really not my game so appreciate people helping push through!

MrJenkinsEsq

I'm rubbish at court process but I do write software for a living. The ` and ¿ characters look like Word's smart quotes (‘ and ’) mangled by the court's bulk issue system, which clearly doesn't handle them well. If so, the PoC was probably drafted as a Word template, mail-merged with the case details, and auto filed without anyone reading the output. But of course nobody would be so careless!

Coupon-mad

Do not include paragraphs saying the POC are vague. Instead, put the bullet points written by MrJenkinsEsq into the WS under a sub heading:

Issues with the Amended Particulars

"Am I allowed to confirm judge?"

It might not be that judge on the day. The allocating judge issuing directions isn't necessarily going to be the hearing judge.