UKCPM PCN - Valid Resident Permit Retrieved During Attendant's Visit

bluelightdude443

Hi everyone,

Forum newbie here.

I've been reading the excellent advice on here and would really appreciate some guidance on my situation.

Background

• Private parking company: UK Car Park Management (UKCPM)
• Residential development managed by a Housing Association.
• IPC member (IAS logo on the signage).
• The registered keeper has now identified me as the driver, so I expect UKCPM to contact me directly.

What happened

I parked in the residents' car park while I went into my partner's ground floor flat to collect her valid resident parking permit, which had accidentally been left inside. The parking attendant was in his own car waiting already.

The permit was valid throughout but simply wasn't in the vehicle because it was inside the flat.

It was an exceptionally hot day (over 35°C on the exposed concrete car park). Whilst retrieving the permit I had a flare-up of an existing health condition and had to stop briefly for a glass of water before immediately returning to the vehicle.

While I was inside, my partner saw the UKCPM parking attendant approaching my vehicle.

Before he had completed taking enforcement photographs, she called out from her kitchen window and told him:

• the vehicle was authorised to park;
• it was covered by her valid resident permit; and
• I was returning immediately with the permit.

Despite this, he continued taking photographs, smirked and laughed.

I returned shortly afterwards, immediately displayed the valid permit in the windscreen and showed it directly to the parking attendant.

He briefly looked and acknowledged me with a thumbs up before driving away, so we genuinely believed the matter had been resolved.

A postal Parking Charge Notice then arrived.

Evidence

I have:

• photographs taken at the time showing the permit displayed;
• photographs of the UKCPM signage;
• a copy of the valid resident permit;
• the resident is willing to provide a witness statement confirming she informed the attendant before enforcement was completed;
• an email that I sent to UKCPM immediately after the incident explaining exactly what had happened (which they never replied to before issuing the Notice to Keeper).

Additional information

The parking attendant's own photographs are timestamped ten minutes apart, and I took photos within the 10th minute on my phone (at the same timestamp the PCN was issued) displaying the valid permit in the windscreen.

The registered keeper has now completed UKCPM's online driver nomination process and provided my name and address, so I expect future correspondence to come directly to me.

The resident has also submitted a formal complaint to the Housing Association, asking them to intervene with UKCPM because this is their contractor and the complaint is about how they managed the situation, rather than simply disputing the parking charge.

My questions

1. Should I wait until UKCPM writes to me before submitting an appeal, or should I be proactive?
2. Does the fact that the resident informed the parking attendant before he completed enforcement, and that the permit was then shown before he left the site, strengthen my position?
3. Is there anything I should avoid saying in my appeal?

I've deliberately removed all identifying information (vehicle registration, permit number, PCN reference, location, etc.), but I'm happy to upload suitably redacted copies of the Notice to Keeper, signage and photographs if that would help.

Many thanks in advance for any advice.

Car1980

All this is fine for the court claim (if one ever comes), but there is no appeals process. UKCPM will automatically tell you tough luck (it's almost as if they don't want to turn down money), and the IAS is corrupt.

Just wait and do nothing.

It would have been wiser not to transfer liability until a court claim was imminent, but ho hum.

In the meantime, find out what your lease says. There is always a chance your lease grants you rights and UKCPM shouldn't even be there. It's amazing how many residents just go along with these things, and management companies often get kickbacks.

If you rent, ask your landlord or find another owner-occupier in the development and ask to see theirs. A WhatsApp group is handy for this kind of thing, or a poster in the lift.

I'm surprised nobody has taken action if this clown is a constant pest. It would a shame if somebody's car "broke down", blocking him in.

Coupon-mad

I'd follow this up with a complaint in your name, mentioning the resident's complaint and asking the HA to step in and cancel it:

"The resident has also submitted a formal complaint to the Housing Association, asking them to intervene with UKCPM because this is their contractor and the complaint is about how they managed the situation, rather than simply disputing the parking charge."

kryten3000

This is the usual trick of insisting that a permit (held by the resident) must be displayed in the visitor's vehicle before the vehicle enters site and continue to be displayed until after the vehicle leaves site.

UK CPM = the company whose attendants were caught putting signs up behind a car, photographing it and then removing the signs. Tells you all you need to know about them.

They're now part of the Agena Group which includes PCMUK, Premier Park and Park Watch.

LoneStarState

I would take a slightly contrarian view and would consider appealing to UKCPM. Having had a relative predatorily ticketed by a UKCPM goon for non display of a permit, I managed to get it cancelled at first appeal. In my case the operative had deliberately taken angled photos to try and obscure an obvious permit and in their glee of issuing the ticket had listed the wrong location. A little bit stronger than your case but I feel yours is within the same potentially winnable category.

You'll have to be pretty unequivocal about the fact liability is fully denied and include that the operative was aware a permit was being obtained before the ticket was issued. This can be corroborated in your partner's signed statement. You'lll need to also make it clear you will pursue complaints in all directions to them, their trade body, the DVLA, your local MP and the housing association (which your partner's statement can confirm is already being prepared). Identifying yourself as driver isn't too big of an issue as it makes you a first hand witness to the operative's predatory conduct, further bolstered by your partner as a first hand witness also.

We can look at chucking some of the clauses in the current joint code of practice about misleading/predatory conduct, consideration periods, vicarious liability of the parking firm for actions of their operatives be they self ticketer/contractors etc. This might all be enough to scare them off and put into the too much effort pile and give up. However if they don't cancel then you can start to express the distress and harassment you feel for merely visiting a loved one and being victim to a clearly predatory scheme and engage in vigorous complaints to the organisations identified above.

It really depends on your appetite to potentially get it killed now or not worry about it until a potential court claim arrives as per Car1980's view (a court claim may never arrive).

A few questions:

Do you have a copy of the NTK you can share? Redact name, address, Vehicle reg and unique references

How long did it take roughly to get the permit back to the car?

Do you have a dashcam or location data from your phone to corroborate timings against the timestamped photos the operative would have taken? This would be to establish if any consideration was even given by the operative

Make sure you write down a description of the operative (don't have to give it here), age, gender, rough height, clothing, skin colour, the vehicle they drove off in etc.

When you get the the PCN nominating you you can login and look at all the evidence they have collected. There might also be further timing data etc.

LoneStarState

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82063055#Comment_82063055

They also now own GXS as of late last year. A wonderful bunch of operators for sure.

bluelightdude443

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82063615#Comment_82063615

Thanks, this was really helpful and I’ve taken the contrarian route. I’ve now put in a direct appeal as the named driver, with liability denied, and kept the focus on the operative being aware of the permit situation before issue.

I’ve also prepared the complaint route in parallel rather than relying on the appeal alone. I won’t post the full wording/details publicly for obvious reasons, but I’ve made sure the evidence and witness points are preserved.

One interesting point from comparing timestamps: I have a smartphone photo showing the permit displayed while the operative was still on-site, and that timestamp appears to be shortly before the PCN was supposedly issued. I’ve therefore asked them to evidence the exact creation/final issue time and the accuracy/synchronisation of the operative’s device timestamps. I also showed the valid permit before they left, so the timing may become quite important.

Appreciate the steer - I think this was the right approach to at least try and get it killed early rather than waiting for it to become a longer-running headache.

LoneStarState

That was what I was hoping for. He hadn't yet submitted the ticket and at the point he did submit it he knew the vehicle was authorised to park and had a valid permit on display. In my opinion no reasonable cause to request keeper details.

What was the approximate timespan the operative's photos cover (full set of images should be available online with timestamps? Was the time you took a photo of the permit in your car before or after he drove off? And roughly how long was the gap between you leaving your vehicle and the first notification to the operative you were getting a permit from the flat in your account?. I'm just looking for the consideration period angle. I'd also download all evidence they have from their portal as well as screenshot any info about the ticket that can't be downloaded from the portal.

In relation to points raised by Car1980 that I don't think have been directly answered: is your partner a leaseholder or just a tenant? If leaseholder, you may want to consult the lease and see what it does (and doesn't say) about parking. Is the spot your vehicle was in specifically allocated and/or demised under the lease?

You may want to run with the no reasonable cause to request keeper details line in the complaints as you've already appealed and mention that this very likely constitutes a data breach and therefore a breach of the KADOE contract with the DVLA. You would additionally be complaining to the ICO in due course as a result in addition to the DVLA. It would be important to add you and your partner's disgust and distress at the operative's and by extension the operator's conduct and that this lying in wait predatory behaviour appears to meet the level of harassment of genuine, authorised residents and visitors.

As an aside, the medical flare up you mentioned, is it a formal diagnosis/condition that could be added as part of the complaint to the housing association if it impacts your mobility/would require some reasonable adjustment for getting the permit?

I appreciate this route way of doing things requires more work initially but you'll have all your evidence if the initial appeal/complaint doesn't work out.

I'd also recommend consulting the joint code of practice. The clauses about consideration periods, ticketing staff conduct and complaints are all relevant as well as mentions about pre existing rights if your partner is a leaseholder and the space your car was in is specifically demised under their lease. I can maybe have a look and dig through the code as well. Might as well wait for the response to your appeal before sending complaint to the company but do consider pushing ahead with the complaint to the housing association.

bluelightdude443

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82064740#Comment_82064740

Appreciate all your input here.

Approx timings from my side are:

• I left the vehicle at around hr:45 to get the permit from the flat. The operative was already present/taking photos at that point. I told the operative that I was on my way to get the permit from the resident and would be back shortly, this is where I had the condition flare-up due to the heat which meant I was not able to walk or move any sooner. The medical issue is a real pre-existing condition (POTS to be specific) and I’ve kept that in as context for why I could not just run back in the heat.
• The resident called out to him at around hr:52 when she noticed that he still chose to take photos and told him the vehicle was authorised and that I was coming straight back with the permit.
• My own phone photo shows the permit displayed in the vehicle at hr:54, while the operative was still on site. The PCN appears to have been issued at hr:55 on the paperwork, so the timing/device timestamp point may be important. I also showed him the valid permit before he left, to which he gave me a thumbs up and a nod.

I’ve downloaded/saved what I can from the portal and taken screenshots. I’ve also asked them to provide the full timestamped evidence pack, exact creation/final issue time, operative notes, device logs/clock synchronisation info, and the observation period relied upon.

Re the DVLA/keeper data point, I’ve included it more as a reserved complaint point for now: the keeper nominated me as driver as soon as they received the postal notice, and I’ve asked them to confirm the keeper’s data will no longer be used to pursue enforcement, plus the date/reasonable cause basis for any DVLA request. If their own timings show the permit was already displayed before issue, then I agree that the reasonable-cause/KADOE angle becomes much stronger.

On the lease/tenancy point: the resident is a tenant rather than a leaseholder as far as I’m aware, and the bay wasn’t individually demised/allocated. The stronger point is that it’s a residents’ car park, every resident has a free permit, and the permit is not vehicle-specific. The code also states that if a parking charge is issued, but a valid permit is proven to exist at appeal stage, it should be, at the very least, reduced to £20. I also stated this fact in the appeal but mentioned I am not seeking a reduction, but a cancellation, and just reminding UKCPM of my awareness of the code.

I’ve avoided posting the full wording/evidence publicly for obvious reasons, but the appeal covers the Code points on consideration/observation, valid permit mitigation, conduct, complaints handling, landowner authority/resident exemptions, and escalation to the ATA/Housing Association/MP if needed.

I’ll keep pushing the complaint with the housing association in parallel rather than waiting for UKCPM to mark their own homework. UKCPM confirmed the parking charge is on hold whilst they "investigate" and the landlord has assigned a case officer and have raised a formal investigation into the issue with a stage 1 complaint notice. They should conclude within the next 8 working days.

Now we wait… thanks again for your input.

LoneStarState

Beneficial timing for your case is that the CMA has published open letters to the industry and government on what they believe are actions by the industry that potentially breach consumer law. One of those is not applying appropriate consideration periods.

Open letter to private parking operators

POTS is definitely worth mentioning/evidencing in your complaint to the parking co and housing association (and corroborating in your partner's statement etc). Given the symptoms of it that could flare up, particularly in hot weather as you mentioned, reasonable adjustments should have been made by the operator.

Car1980

On the lease/tenancy point: the resident is a tenant rather than a leaseholder as far as I’m aware, and the bay wasn’t individually demised/allocated. The stronger point is that it’s a residents’ car park, every resident has a free permit, and the permit is not vehicle-specific

So you need get hold of the flat's lease from either the landlord or another owner-occupier.

For all you know the lease could say "you have the right to park a vehicle in one of the car parking spaces" and UKCPM have no right even be on the land. This is the case more often than you think.