Landlord common areas fire responsibilities

TroubledTarts

No of course not hence why I am asking here for definitive responses.

Legal Law and guidance.

It was nice to get the fire service walking round and giving advice for our FRA but, and this is why the thread was created, we wanted to make sure we were doing everything by the book.

Tendring District council seem as useless as a chocolate teapot so have saved their response which is useless.

ComicGeek

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82045150#Comment_82045150

You won't get a definitive response here. No one can definitively answer except for the competent and qualified assessor who completed your FRA.

TDC don't have any duty to advise you on the FRA, it is your duty to pay a professional to assess and advise. Fire brigade also cannot undertake a FRA, they are explicitly told not to - they can review FRAs and inspect properties, but are not suitably qualified to advise on all aspects of fire safety.

There should be a formal fire risk assessment produced, and the fire doors, signage, emergency lighting, exit doors etc installed in accordance with that.

In most cases, sounders/alarms in the communal areas are actively discouraged and non compliant - however, there can be very specific circumstances where they may be required, but only a formal FRA would confirm that. Even then, it wouldn't be normal to install sounders in the communal areas as you wouldn't achieve the required noise rating at the bedhead with the number of possible closed doors between the sounder and the bedrooms.

Temporary battery smoke alarms to provide peace of mind against arson attacks in communal areas are a completely different thing to a formal FRA, as the FRA wouldn't consider arson in a typical residential setting.

But you need to ask your fire risk assessor and document the conversation for your records. You can forward their response to the tenants for their information. Anything you try and do by yourself could make things worse and ultimately make you liable in the future.

TroubledTarts

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82045810#Comment_82045810

Thankyou, yes we put the FRA together ourselves, me as freeholder and father as landlord.

So I believe we have done what we need to do without anyone to check our work so to speak.

Everyone seems to wash their hands of, we think you should do x,y,z and back over to you so to speak.

Thankyou for your response btw

clairec666

Just jumping on this thread with my own query, because there's an issue with the FRA for a flat I'm buying.

(Similar to OP's building, 3-story house converted into flats).

Purchase is currently being held up because the freeholders have not provided a fire risk assessment for the communal areas. This was first flagged up by my solicitor a couple of months ago, but still no response, and now we're holding up the rest of the chain.

This is all new to me, hence why I'm asking here. How easy/straightforward is it for the freeholder to provide a FRA? And how quickly can they get it done? (Bearing in mind they were asked for it at least 2 months ago, and probably earlier). I guess they don't really care that they're holding up a sale, so don't have a big incentive to push to get it done, but what position are they in legally if they haven't had a risk assessment in place?

Also, another flat in the same building sold in 2020. Assuming a FRA was in place then (if the solicitor was doing their job properly?) then does it need to have been updated since? Have any regulations changed in the last 6 years which would require them to do another risk assessment?

Obviously I'd want to live in a safe building and I want to make sure everything is done properly

user1977

Nothing stopping you (or the seller) from arranging your own FRA if it helps you tick the box.

ComicGeek

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82046643#Comment_82046643

Given the questions you're asking on here (and this is not a personal attack or criticism) I think you need to consider whether you have the 'relevant training, experience, and knowledge of the building' to undertake the assessment. While you don't legally have to hire a professional, the person undertaking the assessment must be deemed competent to identify hazards, evaluate risk and advise on necessary safety measures.

I've worked in the industry for over 25 years, designing and assessment fire detection and alarm systems - I've worked on thousands of new build and existing projects, been part of the discussions on fire design and safety for most of them. But even then I wouldn't consider myself competent to undertake a formal FRA.

Perhaps get a couple of quotes for FRAs, it could be money well spent.

clairec666

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82046893#Comment_82046893

Thanks - didn't realise this was possible, thought it would have to be the freeholder. I would feel a bit peeved that we were having to do it ourselves if it is the freeholder's responsibility, but as you say it ticks the box and gets the sale sorted.

MyRealNameToo

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82047171#Comment_82047171

FRAs can be conducted in different ways, can be communal areas only and non-destructive in which case anyone could commission one as long as they can give access to the areas. Sometimes that however isnt sufficient and holes have to be drilled, samples of materials taken etc and therefore clearly the freeholder would need to give permission. Likewise some need to get into the individual units and again the freeholder has more authority to demand access than a random person turning up asking if they can come in.

The FRA on our building has had to be repeated this year as it turned out the person that conducted the last inspection had lied about their qualifications and their assessment was deemed lacking on another job.

clairec666

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82047184#Comment_82047184

Interesting. It's been a steep learning curve for me - I knew nothing about fire regulations a few weeks back, I (wrongly?) assumed that the freeholders had done everything correctly and had just mislaid the necessary paperwork.

ComicGeek

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82046893#Comment_82046893

I don't think this is correct. I don't believe that a prospective purchaser would have any right to arrange a FRA. They certainly wouldn't have any right to get entry to other people's flats to check fire doors etc, and wouldn't have any right to undertake any investigative works in the communal areas, or to check operation of any fire detection systems, or have any access to previous records/documentation.

The seller also wouldn't have any right to arrange a FRA themselves, or any other individual flat owner/occupier.

No way that I would purchase a property where the freeholder hasn't proven that they have undertaken everything required - not just ticked the box on the FRA, but shown that they are actively engaged with it and undertaking regular reviews.