EDF General incompetence & lack of care etc...

Robin9

Communications between supplier and user can be difficult. Throw in a 3rd party - DWP - must make lit doubly difficult.

You speak of communication with EDF - any correspondence with DWP?

You appear to be a very high user - paying £200 a month in the 2010's and even that amount must have been an underpayment leading to the FuelDirect scheme. £200 is difficult to find for those at work - when on benefits even more so.

Since the mid 2020's fuel costs have doubled and that £200 must be £400 now - no wonder debt is circa £15k.

UnclePin

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82026512#Comment_82026512

HI ,
The debt was about that level when they did eventually set me up on Fuel Direct; that is when it was agreed that my debt repayments wuld be at the rate of £3.70 per utility per week. I even questioned this during the phonecall when they offered it, only to be reassured that it was a fixed rate for Utility debt repayments under that scheme.

They have written to me many times over the last 6 years, always saying that "as you (sic) pay through the Fuel Direct scheme, this bill is only for your information you don't need to do anything else!"

That is why is was such a shock to get a letter seemingly asking for +/-£7990 and ignoring the fact that I am paying via Fuel Direct as a 76 year old on state pension & Pension Credit with no other income at all;so no, I cannot put any money aside; besides I was told that the arrears repayments were capped. If you actually calculate it - £5.40 per week = £280.80 per annum, so it would take me over 55 years (or until I reached 132 years of age!) to pay it all off that way! Hmm…

This is why I am sure they have been erroneous at many points along the timeline and need to put it right properly. As I have also saidm, the amount of stress they have casued me overt e years is immeasurable.

Qyburn

Are you currently paying enough to cover your usage, so the debt isn't increasing?

luci

As you have kept detailed usage, etc on a spreadsheet, what is your annual usage for the past 12 months, ie your current readings in kWh minus your readings from 12 months ago?

Scot_39

[Aside

there are several reasons why rates may not have matched your rate notifications in last 5-6 years - like EPG for 9 months over Q4 2022 to Q2 2023. My first q4 2022 estimate review used non epg rates 16p electric (so guess 2p higher) than epg as issued before epg plan implementation finalised I guess..

But big suppliers often have had some debt relief schemes in place - a couple of EOns were automatic rate discounts - one iirc 25% the other higher (50%?)

And other deductions like the EBSS £66/67 which some did via dd reductions or dd rebates to bank - so god knows how that worked with fuel direct - guess simple account balance credits ?. ]

Your original - and so assume current fuel direct is covering debt recovery - the fixed £3.70 component - and ongoing usage - generally not fixed.

There are caps - but judging by the down to a penny comment here - only on debt component and not the ongoing cost component for UC or you would hope UC top ups for workers anyway. A bit impractical though for pension / pension credit sole income (google ai mentions anothr 25% cap for some benefit deductions - debt or debt and ongoing ??))

https://england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/benefits/universal_credit/deductions_for_fuel

But if it hasnt been reviewed, and still as your figures - take out tge £3.70 per fuel - £7.40 pw - thats £50 per week, c£217 per month.

Thats actually higher than the Ofgem cap - suggesting your a high user - bacjpk in 2020 the cap was under £100 pm.

Which barely covers the old £200 DD figure that was so insufficient, let alone rhe £330 demanded in mid 2010s - triggering the DD cancellation - when fuel so much cheaper than average over last 6 years. It doesnt matter if you of your bank did that as sounds like you were planning anyway - it counts as your failure to pay.

That may have pushed you onto more expensive standard credit rates - adding 5% to bills.

And as to refusal to let you go back on DD - was that because of your £200 limit judged too low - or because were supposedly going on direct payment scheme from dwp etc for ongoing costs - as dont think you can do both.

You will therefore have owed edf for any missed payments as a result, but these should now all I would hope be then rolled into fuel direct debt deal at £3.70 per fuel per week.

£7.40 pw if the 5% cap is both fuels (some sites not clear) suggests a debt by 2020 of c£7700, or if 5% per fuel half tgst, but it can go over 5% cap if say you were threatened with disconnection. Add a new £7900 demand this month and pushing your £15k total.

Its not clear how much the fuel direct delay added to tge debt - and if the debt driving £7.40 award by mid 2020 was at time adjusted. Given your talking decades - beyond likely life expectency for most of us - suspect its getting a bit academic.

And as othera above have pointed to, that history before the Ukraine, govt energy policy and now Iran crisis, drives prices far higher than back then

I fear given the price movements and the frozen payments, your new debt demand for the £7900 may well be the excess over the amount paid, not covered by the current fuel direct payment in last 6 years.

And again you appear right EDF have a responsibility reading that Shelter post to periodically review any ongoing bill cost component (assuming same rules aplly as do to UC deduction - which would seem a sensible requirement).

Arguably perhaps you should have challanged them , some folk posting here in past end up with normal DDs not being reviewed for years at some suppliers, and dont challange, and end up in large 4 figure debts.

If so, if just 6 years worth, Suggests an underpayent ot around £7900/6×12 = £110 per month vs actual usage your deduction c£50pw still ??/£217pm - so using £330pm ?

But thats maybe where your personal rsdponsibility kicks in - as if correct thats around twice the level of the current cap - which Ofgem estimates covers for 2-3 living in a 2-3 bed house. Or a lot for a single person. But as we age the nhs and age charity consensus is on average we need hotter room temps - and that - we know every degree on the thermostat - adds significantly to bills.

On side issue - Has anyone talked to you about eco home efficiency type grants - more efficient controls, hesting, upping insulation etc to cut heating costs ?

I GUESS THE BIG question is whether any debt recovery for that £7900 demand could demand more from you than the existing fuel direct debt £7.40.

Thats where you need more experienced debt expert help than I can offer.

I Suspect if repeated the 2020 exercise - look for a new judgement and so could add say another 5% for new debt to old plan = £7.60 per week say if 5% both fuels.

To many thats a couple of coffees or drinks out - to someone alresdy struggling on a low state income thats around half the minimum wage - thst maybe a few days food or other essentials - imposdible to find.

And likely potentially more significantly a long due IMO upward review of ongoing use cost deductions. Which you again might sadly may well find completely unaffordable.

I do worry how they might be viewing past history, the cancelled DD, the only offering £200 etc - and the accumulating debt since. Even if a failure to review deduction seems a major likely source given at times over double 2020 energy costs. Let alone mid 2010s when they wanted £330 (how much debt built into that vs ongking use ??)

As a rough guide from last debt plan and payment agreed mid 2020- the Ofgem cap for apr 1 2020 was £1162, in tge interim epg as above held cap at £2500 for 9 months in total, next month new cap - at 5% lower tdcvs - £1862 at dd rates. More like £2000 at 2020 tdcvs. So any review to deduction for ongoing costs could be quite significant.

So from a suppliers perspective you currently arent paying enough for whst you use.

They would like you to pay - you might if possible practical and safe want to cut use.

You could argue edf or govt (much trickier) negligent and so should have (may already have) writen off tge period from first agreed to implemented fuel direct in 2020 at a push. They may already have adjusted debt and so £3.70 demand per fuel already though.

You could also clearly argue they should have been reviewing ongoing fuel direct payments - as suggested by that Shelter doc.

But if past bills over period show an accumulating debt, normal rules like back billing may not automatically apply.

And like the fuel direct 5% cap - any other debt recovery payment path has I suspect to be affordable.

But why this hasnt been reviewed and resolved sooner - why you have continued to consume significantly more than your were paying for, to face another near £8k demand is bad.

But sometimes it seems from a supplier side- thats just the crazy nature of the system inertia, a mix of UK energy firm delays and political / societal / legal constraints and timescales on debt actions.

I think its long since time you sought out proper debt charity advice given a history of problems dealing this by yourself.

I find it a little difficult to get past the anti edf rhetoric - and an independent voice may not just help knowing what buttons to push based on past cases and full knowlefge of process . And with Ombudsman etc posts regularly advise try to base on clear facts stripping out anger and anti edf sentiment.

Its likely on pension credit - your highish fuel bills at todays rates if my presumption thd £7900 is new debt (in part based on your now totzl £15k) means you will need additional help to live and pay

Theres Citizens Advice on many high streets still - or local and national debt charities (go charity not fee based debt advisor if possible) - one such group has a section on debt free wannebe forum here - others easily found online.

Some councils also have debt teams - you may already be dealing say for council tax rebates.

Perhaps even the govt DWP pensions credit folk could help clarify why fuel direct payments frozen or point you towards additional state help e.g. as on pension credit, at least make sure your getting all the other help it can trigger - e,g, council tax etc. See list in other help section here

https://www.gov.uk/pension-credit

EssexHebridean

Just for clarity OP, can you confirm:

• That you have been getting regular bills
• That those bills are based on estimated readings

What sort of meter do you have - an old style traditional one - where either you give readings monthly or where because of your priority services register status the supplier reads the meter at semi-regular intervals, or a smart meter which is not sending readings - hence the estimates?

I think it's reasonable to have assumed that although the repayments of the debt amount are fixed, the actual amount you pay for your energy over a year (and certainly over 6 years) is likely to change with pricing variations - although it does sound as though perhaps their wording around this may not have been clear - if that is the case then it's certainly something that it would be fair to complain about. Right now though the key thing seems to be to establish with them that the amount payable against the arrears IS fixed, and to work out how much you realistically should be paying for your actual use now, to avoid the arrears getting any larger. That is where your detailed information with regular readings will come in, of course.

If they do come back and tell you that the arrears have increased, it feels as though you would have grounds to point out to them that had they been more "on the ball" with ensuring that your charges for your actual use were kept more in line with where they should be, this would not be the case. This may well help you avoid an increase in the amount being charged against the arrears. (But not an increase in the charges for your actual use, of course).

QrizB

FWIW I've had a bit of a Google around the Fuel Direct scheme (paying your energy bill direct from benefits) and can't see anything to suggest it's intended to be a fixed payment for 5+ years.

I'd expect the energy supplier to be reviewing it annually. It sounds as though they haven't.

MSE_ForumTeam5

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elsien

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82027662#Comment_82027662

Would that not depend if the Fuel Direct payments were purely set up to pay the arrears at the time in which case they wouldn’t need to change if the OP was able to then keep on top of payments moving forwards.

It seems to depend on whether (as the OP believes) the increasing arrears are the fault of EDF due to inaccurate readings and other mistakes, et cetera, or high usage and not keeping on top of current bills, or a combination of the two.
Whatever people’s opinion of citizens advice this may be something that would benefit from sitting down with all the paperwork in a face-to-face visit.

QrizB

Would that not depend if the Fuel Direct payments were purely set up to pay the arrears at the time in which case they wouldn’t need to change if the OP was able to then keep on top of payments moving forwards.

The OP has presented the payments as covering both ongoing consumption plus an allowance for arrears.

Per the opening post on this thread:

I pay EDF for my gas and electricity via Fuel Direct deductions from my Pension Credit. These were agreed in mid-2020 at the weekly rate of £27 for Electricity and £23 for gas, with a fixed payment of £3.70 for each account’s arrears, the total deduction being £57.40.

So £50 per week for ongoing billing, plus £7.40 per week towards their arrears.

If OP's energy use in 2020 was really circa £50/wk (ie. £2600/yr) then they're a much higher-than-average user. Back then the cap was around 18p/kWh for electricity and 3.5p/kWh for gas.