I need help

AdoraMelody

Hi i have an ongoing saga with a builder who is acting in behalf of my next door neighbour.

Just a background to my situation, i have moved back in with my mum along with my husband and two kids as i am applying for a mortgage to a seperate property. My mothers english isnt very good so im dealing with this matter for her.

A month ago a letter came through to our door stating that her chimney was causing damage to our neighbour on the right of us property. Like i said this isnt my property it belongs to my mum so my knowledge is very limited, so i checked outside the front if the house and could see the chimney is actually on the left of us and is connected to the left property. Thinking the builder might be mistaken, i declined the work and costs in an email that the builder had left in his letter stating the facts that i believed to be right at the time that we share a joint chimney with property on the left and its not our issue.

He replied back saying its the rear chimney, to which confused me as my mother said we didnt have a rear chimney and i replied back saying what rear chimney? He didnt reply back.

my husband further checked and could see a chimney between my mums and the property on the right. But as i was awaiting his reply which i never got back i left it, thinking maybe it isnt us and he could be mistaken.

today he emails back saying

The leaks in (redacted) in your shared chimney at the rear have worsened and our client is keen to have this remediated. 
We need to discuss this with you as it is a shared asset. 
Our team can go down the party wall route if needed, though this will involve costs to be shared above that forecast for the actual repairs. In addition our client the landlord is keen to recover the cost of the damage to her property, which she is entitled to do to offset the cost of our repairs and this is to be discussed due to the lack of maintenance on the rear chimney. 
Please can you you contact myself or (redacted) soonest, as we will be initiating the party wall process otherwise to allow for works on the chimney to prevent further damage to (redacted) and the residents within to have their living condition restored.
Many thanks,

I replied back saying

**** Thank you for your email.

I understand that your client is concerned about the worsening leak at (redacted) and wishes to address the issue as soon as possible.

Before I am able to discuss responsibility, liability, costs, or any proposed works, I would be grateful if you could please provide the following information:

• Copies of any surveyor’s, contractor’s or engineer’s reports relating to the chimney and alleged cause of the leak.
• Photographs of the chimney defect(s) identified.
• Photographs of the damage said to have been caused within (redacted)
• Details of the proposed remedial works.
• Any quotations or estimates obtained for the proposed works.
• Clarification of which parts of the chimney are considered to be shared and the basis upon which responsibility is being attributed.
• Details of the basis on which your client believes they are entitled to recover repair costs and any alleged damage costs from me.

Once I have had the opportunity to review the above information, I will be in a better position to understand the situation and consider the matter further.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Kind regards ****

I know this is an ai generated email, i wanted to sound professional and clear as possible when it comes to something im unfamiliar with.

Once receiving what i asked for i was going to show it to my builder who i had rang that same morning to come and view my chimney that same afternoon to see if what he is saying is true along with the pictures and evidence.

This is what I received back.

We’re a contractor and the below is what you should already know for your home. 
Photos have already been sent over previously.
Can you please send over a non ai generated email  - we are not your legal advisors or surveyors -
We are the contractors your neighbour has contracted and paid to deliver the works that are causing damage from your shared chimney. 
Your building survey and legal advice when you purchase the home should have informed you of the maintenance obligations due. 
Please engage with (redacted)at (redacted) as a co ordination. However the delay in response has lead to further damage and our client does intend to recover the decoration, re plasterwork and roofing costs proportionately as is fair and legal. 
We are not able to advise on your home formally, it is very clear and we have numerous drone and roofing inspection photos of the condition of the chimney and leakage internally from the joint structure at rear of home. 
Please liaise with (redacted) as she has the costs you are jointly liable for, alternately you can appoint your own contractor. 
If you wish to challenge then we can issue a party wall notice formally - again costs split and we can advise our client of this but they are keen to rectify the defects on behalf of their tenants as soon as you allow.

Please liaise (redacted)

Which i find extremely strange and odd seeing as the person hes telling me to liase with he has never mentioned before in any correspondence and hes the one who has initiated contact both times and i have no details of this second person. The fact that hes mad i used ai is strange to me. He has yet to send me any images/footage whatsoever. I replied back saying.

**** I am unsure why it matters whether my email was AI-assisted or not. There was nothing offensive or inappropriate in what I sent, and the questions raised were genuine concerns that I am entitled to ask.

You are asking me to accept that I am responsible for part of the costs of these works and potentially for damage to a neighbouring property. In those circumstances, I believe it is entirely reasonable to ask for the evidence upon which those conclusions have been reached.

To date, I have not seen any photographs of the alleged damage, inspection reports, quotations, or other evidence supporting the claims being made. 

The only correspondence I initially received was a letter through my door. Following that i sent a reply declining as i thought it was the chimney at the front of the house, and then you replied back saying it was the rear chimney which i replied back, asking, “What rear chimney?” as I was unclear which chimney was being referred to. I did not receive a response to that email. As such, I do not accept that any delay has been caused by me, as I was awaiting clarification.

I am simply asking the contractor who has identified the issue to provide the information and evidence relied upon in reaching the conclusion that the shared chimney is responsible for the damage being alleged.

I note that you have stated there are drone photographs and inspection photographs available. I would therefore be grateful if these could be provided so that I can properly understand the issue.

I also find it somewhat confusing that I am being asked to liaise with (redacted) regarding costs and liability, whilst at the same time being told that you are the contractor who has inspected the chimney and identified the alleged defect. I am simply trying to establish the facts before discussing responsibility or costs.****

Yes i know its another ai generated email. I dont care to be honest. Its to help me communicate with him as best as possible for something im already unfamiliar with.

He has yet to reply back to this email. I am waiting for my builder to come later and he will inspect the chimney and I will show him all the correspondence i have received. I havent told the other builder i have my own visiting.

I find his replies such a red flag, because if you have pictures and evidence whats wrong if you send them to me. I know he said he has sent them, but now ive asked for them again ive yet to receive anything. Im not just going to take his word for it. He could be charging us the full cost, or i might not even be liable.

Ontop of that ive found his company on trust pilot with only 2 reviews. And this guy must think im as stupid as him to accept costs without any evidence that our property is responsible because he has reviewed his own company saying how he is happy that ‘mark’ from said building company worked on his own home and he is happy with the result. His name is visible as the author of the review and below that is a 1 star review that absolutely slates the company and states him as the owner.

I will liase with the letting agents of the prosperty. Im just waiting for my builder to have a look before i start contacting them. But i just find all this very strange. Should i be concerned?

He is the one who has reached out to me both times but is now refusing to engage with me further because i asked for evidence of this happening. I am well within my rights to ask for evidence, does he think im stupid to just accept costs? That means anyone can come to my mums property and say your property is damaging mines here is an invoice pay up!

if he has said footage of evidence its coming from us then he should be able to provide it to me. Not just tell me he has it and they have determined its us.

What does anyone else make of this?

elsien

Talk to the neighbour and not the builder?
It does seem odd that the builder is sending you ridiculous letters on the neighbours behalf, so cut out the middleman.

AdoraMelody

the neighbour is renting the property from the landlord. The landlord permanently resides in the usa. I think the builder is acting on behalf of the letting agents.

Im waiting for my builder to look at it before i even discuss anything costs etc. all I asked from the builder was evidence which he says he supposedly has, and the moment i ask for it suddenly demands i talk to someone else about it.

he was happy to contact me directly about it but the moment i ask to prove what hes saying then suddenly its not his job to communicate with me and its up to the letting agents which he didnt even mention up until the last response from him.

Section62

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6670599/i-need-help

I know this is an ai generated email, i wanted to sound professional and clear as possible when it comes to something im unfamiliar with.

AI is the last thing you should use if you want to sound professional and clear… it just churns out the words it thinks respond to whatever you asked it to do.

Overall, the correspondence comes across as though you are trying to stall or delay doing anything, which if damage is being done to the structure of the property would understandably result in frustration on the other side.

You don't have to accept their estimates/quotes - this is one of the functions of the party wall Act. If you don't agree you can have a jointly appointed or separate party wall surveyor to make a determination as to costs. This will increase the overall costs though as the surveyor has to be paid, and the cost of the surveyor can also be apportioned. You can also get your own builder to inspect (as you are) and get them to guide you on whether the work needs to be done and how much it should cost.

AdoraMelody

I really dont care about using ai. What strikes me as a red flag was he didnt like me using ai when i didnt say anything untoward. Maybe he didnt anticipate that me using ai would ask questions he didnt think he would be asked.

and no im not stalling. If he already has said evidence proving that my property is the reason for the damage why cant he send it to me? Its fine anyways my builder visited within two hours and hes now taken over the situation. Hes actually checked the chimney and the loft in myb property, and read the emails from the other builder and finds it all strange that they have determined we are immediately at fault without requesting to check our property.

He also spoke to the other builder who said hes been emailing me for 3 months which is a blatant lie as he posted the letter first telling me of the issue last month, i even have the dated letter. He stopped replying back to me. My builder said how can he have determined the fault from drone footage alone, and after challenging him on many points and telling him that our property has no leak and is bone dry the leak is coming from their side, the other builder has now said he wants nothing to do with the job and hes not going to continue with it.

We have decided to remove the chimney anyway because its useless and our builder has said although the chimney is not leaking water into our side, it will eventually do it so the best thing is to get it completely removed while the cost is at a minimum now, which is what i have agreed to. So now waiting on the other property if they are happy with the new findings and happy for my builder to take on the job.

Boohoo

Do you have any photos and/or diagrams to show what you are on about.

I can't see why your mum should pay for work on a chimney that she doesn't own according to you.

I know this a MSE users favourite saying but does your mum have legal protection with her home insurance?

AdoraMelody

i dont have any. Its a joint rear chimney.

i accept that its a joint cost for it to be removed. But as far as me paying for their damage to their property, even my builder said its ridiculous because its not like ive neglected something on my side.

the damage is all around the chimney, ita basically weeds all grown around it, its because our houses are 140years old. We are both responsible for the chimney removal. But the water thats coming in is coming in from a leak into their property. Its not coming in through mine and then into theirs as the first builder said with the drone. My property has no leak, nor evidence of any wet walls or moisture in the loft, ceilings.

my mum doesnt have home insurance as her home is mortgage free. When my father died she never renewed the home insurance. Obviously now we are kicking ourselves.

Boohoo

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82019171#Comment_82019171

NO HOME INSURANCE.!!!!!!!!!!!

If your mum owns the house even with a mortgage or without get insurance NOW, this minute.

Before you get any work done on the house by you or next door get insurance asap.

I asked for photos or diagrams because if the chimney is coming down is it on the outside of the property or inside chimney stack?

If it s joint chimney then you should be paying half the removal cost.

Maybe the builder is trying it on and has bigger plans for the house as getting rid of chimneys makes more room in the homes.

Get insured now.

Section62

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82019190#Comment_82019190

Maybe the builder is trying it on and has bigger plans for the house as getting rid of chimneys makes more room in the homes.

It is the OP's builder who suggested removing the chimney, not the neighbour's builder.

Boohoo

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82019200#Comment_82019200

This thread is hard to follow.

Builder mentioning party wall act and extra costs for the OP mother.

Then saying it's only her mothers side of chimney causing water damage.

Does that mean if the OP takes down the chimney that a party wall agreement will have to be made.

That's why I said a photo or diagram could explain a lot as is it a complete stack or just the exposed above roof that's coming down?

Section62

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82019064#Comment_82019064

I really dont care about using ai. What strikes me as a red flag was he didnt like me using ai when i didnt say anything untoward. Maybe he didnt anticipate that me using ai would ask questions he didnt think he would be asked.

Up to you, but I don't think there is anything sinister behind the builder's reaction. What AI produced for you comes across as hostile and abrasive, the kind of letter you might send in response to a LBA once things have 'gone legal'. My perception is the builder was simply saying "Can we have a chat about this?" and probably read the response as "See you in court". AI isn't smart enough to understand nuances like this.

Issues like this often happen due to miscommunication. Sticking AI into the line of communication between your mum and the neighbour has probably resulted in an unfortunate miscommunication.

and no im not stalling

It is about perception, not what you are actually doing. You've gone from claiming the chimney doesn't exist, to more or less demanding a raft of technical information which isn't really needed at this stage. You've inadvertently done exactly what someone who is stalling would do.

My builder said how can he have determined the fault from drone footage alone,

Drones are a commonly used survey tool now, and with a drone you can identify defects, even though this won't act as proof that the leak is on your side. Your builder's possible lack of understanding of modern survey methods perhaps says more about him than the neighbour's builder.

and after challenging him on many points and telling him that our property has no leak and is bone dry the leak is coming from their side, the other builder has now said he wants nothing to do with the job and hes not going to continue with it.

A drone survey can't provide proff because roof leaks often involve water entering in one place, travelling along the roof, and then appearing inside somewhere else. Unless your builder stripped the affected area of the roof then he would be no more able to prove the leak is on the neighbour's side than the neighbour's builder can prove it is on your side. The neighbour's builder has probably now decided the job is going to be more hassle than it is worth.

We have decided to remove the chimney anyway…

You can't decide to remove it unilaterally though, you'll need to get the neighbour to agree to the work. If they don't agree then you would need to go down the Party Wall Act route.

i accept that its a joint cost for it to be removed. But as far as me paying for their damage to their property, even my builder said its ridiculous because its not like ive neglected something on my side.

If the chimney "basically [has] weeds all grown around it" then it has been neglected. Without stripping the roof it is impossible to rule out the possibility of water entering on your side and flowing over to the neighbour's side causing daamge. Even if the leak is on their side, since they need your mum's permission to work on the chimney (to the extent it is a party wall), your lack of co-operation might give them grounds for a claim against your mum for damage resulting from the delay in getting agreement in place.

My property has no leak, nor evidence of any wet walls or moisture in the loft, ceilings.

The lack of visible evidence on your side doesn't rule out the possibilty the water is entering on your side.

Moving forward, the best approach would be to try to dial things down. Contact the agent and explain there may have been some misunderstandings, your mum wants to get this sorted and is happy to discuss the extent of work required and how the costs should be apportioned. Make it a 'human' email, explaining your mum's language difficulties and perhaps her bereavement. Try to get to a point of sympathetic understanding rather than hostility.

Getting into disputes with neighbours can be extremely expensive.