Opinion on roof work

battenburg88

I posted this on another forum but having got some useful responses in here for a couple of queries I thought it was worth asking here as well.

We've just had some work done on the roof and I have some concerns about the finish. I'd like to know if a), the concerns are valid and b) what I should be saying to the builder in terms of best practice etc.

Its the roof of a lean-to extension at the back of a terraced house. Its a small area and they replaced all the timber in order that insulation could be installed alongside a new membrane. You'll see in the photos that a little bit sticks out further as it is a store room. The tiles were to be re-used as was the leadwork. We had had some re-rendering done last year and knowing that a new roof was likely, or at least some changes to the roof, we had new leadwork installed where the roof meets the house before rendering over it. The leadwork along the parapet wall is not new.

My concerns are - and apologies for probably not having the correct terminology:

1) the finish of the leadwork. This may be cosmetic but I was expecting it to nicely tie in with the profile of the tiles, even if it was being re-used.

2) the termination of the leadwork at the end of the parapet wall. Whilst the instruction was to re-use the existing lead, they did mention that they may need a bit more, and indeed I remember say that I had some leftover from the previous work should they want to use it! It seems like this bit has just been torn/pulled round.

3) gap between the edge of the tile and the parapet wall. Its hard to tell how big this is and I don't think the tiles are meant to abut the wall exactly, but the gap looks bigger than I might have expected.

4) overhang of tiles and membrane. The membrane is untidy and is wicking water from the gutter. Not sure if this is because the tiles are overhanging too little or the membrane is too long, or something else.

5) The visible battens are getting wet at the corners, which seems like a major and fundamental issue.

6) There is nothing to stop insects etc. getting in under tiles - not sure if this is a something that this style of roof normally has though, but we did have problems before with a wasps nest under the tiles.

Other than the untidiness of the lead, you need a step ladder to see these bits properly. I'll admit that I should have got out there sooner, but I was making final checks before paying so I'm glad I've seen this now. For the most part it was the depths of winter so I saw stuff from the inside.

If there are issues here, I hopes its more of a tidy up rather than take off the whole lot of tiles. We will have a chat to the builder in the week but I would like to be informed about what I should be asking for or what hasn't been done here. There is a local roofer who we usually use, but because this package of work involved a bigger variety of things that the roofer doesn't cover, we used a building company instead.

What should I be negotiating here? Just fix it? It makes me a bit worried that they don’t really know roofing stuff, and I’d almost prefer the usual roofer to come and do it.

I'll also add that this was done with BC sign off, and they seemingly didn't have any issue, but I suppose that was looking at the insulation and the structure.

stuart45

That's a really rough job. The lead hasn't been dressed over the tiles properly. There's no fascia board, or eaves support trays either.

plumb1_2

that’s a terrible job, I’d ask your local roofer to come and give you a quote to sort all the issues out. Then deduct this off the invoice.

As you don’t want trigger back

hatt55

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81865487#Comment_81865487

Only a minor plus point in the circumstances, but there is a fascia board, the pictures are just from an angles where you can't see it. Although obviously I'm now doubting its installation!

Hmmm, its frustrating. The roofer that I've used before is really good, but exclusively does roofs, hence not getting them to do this because of the wider work involved. I'll try and give them a call tomorrow to see if they can take a look and advice on what they would do to remedy it and the likely cost. Am I obligated to give the builder a chance to fix their own work, of could I state from the outset that I would like to get someone else?

Are there any very specific points that I should be raising here? I'm conscious that I asked for the lead to be re-used, but as a layperson that was sort of on the assumption that it wouldn't compromise the roof finish and they would inform me if that wasn't the case. I also expected that you could still get that nice neat finish where the lead sits on the tiles even if it wasn't new.

Section62

Only a minor plus point in the circumstances, but there is a fascia board, the pictures are just from an angles where you can't see it. Although obviously I'm now doubting its installation!

I think I can see a bit of fascia board behind the gutter, but the point is that we should be seeing fascia board instead of all that rough sawn timber - the fascia should start just below the tiles.

Really poor work. It looks like the lead is directing water straight onto the timber, whereas the idea is the lead should be weatherproofing the roof structure by directing water down the tiles into the gutter.

battenburg88

A bit of an update on this. All so frustrating because I wanted a new roof so I no longer had to worry, and now I'm having to possibly agree workarounds because it was designed badly.

The builder who has done the work wasn't very impressed that I had got a second opinion as it undermined trust etc. It wasn't a very nice conversation (if I ask someone else then of course they will come up with xyz ways they would have done it differently). I think they acknowledge that the lead hasn't been done well but they seem to say that due to the pitch and constraints of the roof they both couldn't use eaves trays, nor could they adjust the structure to change the pitch.

I've sought the opinion of two other roofers. Both think its a poor job - one thinks there was a fundamental problem with the design of roof. Because the timbers have been increased in depth to accommodate insulation, everything has been shifted upwards and that has resulted in using the double battens at the end to prop the tiles up. That's the timber that you can see in the photos.

The other roofer focused on the lead and that the finish has just been done really poorly and additional/replacement plead is needed. They also said an additional half tile was needed where the roof meets the parapet. They didn't seem to think that the whole design of the roof was wrong, and they said that eaves trays were required.

I'm in a bit of a tangle with what to do. The builder is due to come back on Monday to 'sort the lead'. I don't know exactly what that mean by that - whether its just dressing the existing lead better or adding/replacing. In respect to their other plans to remedy the fascia board and exposed battens, I've asked that they put their proposal in writing before I agree to it.

At this point what I would really prefer is to get a specialist roofer to sort it out, but that means I would need to stop the builder and say I was only willing to pay a certain amount. How do I judge that amount? Use the price from the other roofer and deduct it from what I pay them as per Plumb1_2's suggestion? Pay a percentage of what the builder wanted to charge (their quote is itemised with labour/materials/waste, but not broken down more than that)?

And on the point of eaves trays - I don't know exactly what the angle of the roof is, but the builder is firm in saying they can't be used. Whereas the roofer said they should be added.

WIAWSNB

Incredibly frustrating for you, BB88. You've asked two other roofers and received two different answers.

Ignore the roofer's whine of 'lack of trust'. That is pathetic. He shouldn't complain - he should apologise for putting you in a position where you had to call him back, and be falling over himself to address your concerns - which are legitimate. What a git.

I am not a roofer, but it appears there are three issues here, two of them easy to sort.

1. The torn lead at the corner which allows water to hit the ends of the battens. Assuming these batten ends have been sawn, and even if they haven't, they will rot. They just will. That is shocking work, but should be easily addressed by slipping more lead under the torn piece, and securing it (with lead sealant?). But, shocking that they left it like this.
2. The poor lead dressing over the end tiles. It appears - to my untrained eye - that the tiles are close enough to the parapet (I think), and it appears that there is enough lead there to be neatly formed down to make a neat gully, and then over that last tile ridge, and that, I understand, is what should be done. Not just for professionalism's sake, but aesthetics, and reducing the risk of flapping which could fatigue the lead over time, and reducing the chance of heavy rain being blown under the gappy gaps. It is very poor - sub-amateur, no pride - and there is no excuse other than laziness or incompetence. But, relatively easy to sort.
3. And the woeful arrangement along the eaves. What the? How the?

What should have been done here? I've Googled eaves support trays to try and understand, and am still not certain. But, that surely ain't right.

I think, provided the roof angle is steep enough, the trays should have been fitted over the double-batten (or just a single? Or perhaps a single held up on wee spacers to allow ventilation underneath?), the felt draped over this - and trimmed short of visible exposure (it'll deteriorate in UV), and the fascia boards then fitted neatly tucked under the tray's drip edges.

Possibly that full run of double batten shouldn't be there at all? Doesn't it block the ventilation path? (Having looked at some diagrams, but I just don't know.)

Why is there a double-batten there in any case? Are there doubles throughout, or are the upper ones single?

Is it even the case that there shouldn't be any battens at the bottom at all, but that the fascia does the job of holding the trays and tiles up at the correct height? Coupled, perhaps, with packets/spacers/fillets? As I said, I don't know - there may be different methods.

I don't fully understand what the arrangement should be. But what you have is surely wrong?

Do you have Legal Protection included in your home policy? Cool - write down an outline of the issues, and call them up for advice. And then just ask them, "How do I handle this?" Call them today - you have paid for this service.

Try not to be fazed by the roofer - HE is in the wrong here. Either ignore his whines and keep focussed on the actual issues, or if he complains too much, handle him by asking Qs; "Ok, I felt there were issues, but I'm not an expert - so what should I have done? If I bought a car that had a knocking sound, would I be 'losing the trust' of the seller by taking it to a garage to be checked over? Really?!" "IS the leadwork of an adequate standard? So, I DO have a valid concern?" "What would happen to these wet battens after a few years?"

Obviously only if needed, and very calmly! The point is to make your points by asking Qs, not stating things. Ie, not, "These battens will rot!", but, "What will happen to these battens if they keep getting wet?" make him answer. Repeat ad nauseam until he gives the correct answer.

Good luck. Any chance of your preferred roofer seeing this work? Could you even email him with these pics? Since you seemingly have a trusted roofer, perhaps the person you'll be engaging to fix the work, then it would be good to have a definitive, "Ok, this is what needs doing; the bottom two rows of tiles need to be removed, and then…"

In general, yes, you are obligated to allow the original tradesperson a fair chance to put things right. That's why it's important to know what 'right' actually is. The exceptions to this are if the standard of work is so poor that the person is clearly completely out of their depth and incompetent (I think you might struggle here, especially since BC passed this, and it's all quite fixable), or if trust is lost between you. (Interesting - the guy has almost given you this get-out! What you did by asking for other opinions is 'correct'. His whining about a supposed loss of trust is NOT. And that is why you now, legitimately, don't trust him as much as you'd want to. But, not quite bad enough yet!)

However, if his attitude is bad on Monday to the point of genuine discomfort - if you feel he is not taking your legitimate concerns seriously, or is making excuses, or is otherwise trying to make you feel 'bad' about 'causing' this situation, then that's just-cause imo to consider him 'untrustworthy' if you wish. And if he tries on the 'trust' or 'unfair' element too much, then - yes - you can tell him to leave, and inform him you'll get someone else to sort it, and bill him. But, that's nuclear, and make sure you are covered. Ie, check this with your LegProt - ask them what is 'unacceptable' behaviour, and try and have a way of evidencing this - a witness (ideally impartial), a CCTV recording, even - sadly - having your phone surreptitiously recording.

This guy is in the wrong. He needs to sort it properly, ideally with good grace.

And if the lower couple of strips of tiles need removing to sort this, that ain't a biggie, and it certainly ain't an excuse to not fix it.

I'd also be inclined to email these pics to the BCO involved, and ask their opinion again. I wonder just how close this guy looked?

And, (4), a 'wicking' membrane will be keeping these battens near-permanently damp in wet weather. Your roofer does not care about what happens next.

WIAWSNB

Could anyone here show what that eaves arrangement should be, so that BB88 knows this for tomorrow?

WIAWSNB

Would any roofers on here not fit eaves trays when recovering a roof? Surely it's now standard practice?

battenburg88

Thanks for such a comprehensive response and appreciate your efforts in researching this.

Since I posted this, I have had had a written response from the builder of what they plan to do. In respect to the lead, they have said they will fix it and have given details. This isn't as comprehensive as (let's call them) independent roofer 2 suggested, but it does seem to acknowledge that the leadwork is not sufficient. They have then proposed a plan for putting the membrane above the battens, and then some kind of cut down felt support tray to create a runoff for water on the outside of the battens and cutting openings in the batten above the membrane to allow any trapped water to escape.

To try answer some of your questions (though I too am not a roofer, so may be getting some of this muddled!). I think the double batten at the end is to prop up the final tile because the roof has all been lifted up and otherwise the end of the roof would droop down almost. I don't think the rest of the roof is double battened. I believe this arrangement has come to pass because a small storeroom at the end of the roof is at a shallower pitch. This seems to have caused the problem - I'm not sure if the rest of the roof is deemed to be too shallow as well, I can go and check some angles later.

Knowing about pitches and eaves detailing seems to be beyond the knowledge that you would expect of an average homeowner, hence deferring to the builder and assuming that their proposal would be sufficient. The builder has since admitted that they felt a bit stuck with the pitch of the roof, but if that was the case then surely they should have known at the outset and it not now be up to me to try and assess whether a workaround is going to keep water out.

At the moment I feel as though I would like to ask them to pause and not come back tomorrow to do work on the lead while I get Independent roofer 1 and 2 to assess what they've suggested. I don't think they will be happy with the delay, and I'm not outright saying I don't want them to undertake the work. But given what they were prepared to walk away from as a 'completed' roof, I also kind of don't trust them to fix it. If I start to say, yes, have a go at repairing the lead and it still isn't done adequately, then I don't know if that muddies the water for any future discussion.

The key overall question, which I don't currently have an answer to, will fixing the lead and eaves detailing be sufficient for me to have a watertight roof in the long term. Or, does this issue with how they have done about lifting the roof and adjusting/not adjusting the pitch mean that I will never have a properly working roof without ripping it out and starting all over again.

I do have legal assistance with my insurance. They are a 24/7 helpline but have not answered this afternoon…

WIAWSNB

We badly need a roofer on this forum!

I can't tell from your pics - are the bottom 3(?) rows at a slightly lesser pitch?

I have to say I don't understand the cause of this problem, what effect this small storeroom has - I think we'd need a much wider pic of the whole lot.

I can only guess that this is some form of 'complication' here, as all the roofers have come up with different solutions. But darned if I can see what it is. And in any case, the leadwork is very poor, and there is no excuse for that.

Yes, I understand it's 'correct' for the felt to come over the bottom battens, so that's something. Also they'll be adding trays - again, good. But I don't fully understand the problem, I'm afraid.

Your LP is disappointing!

What to do? You can put them off if you like - it's your house, and your call. I know it's awkward, but you are in the driving seat. What would you do with the gained time, tho'? Get the detail of the other two solutions? Or, try and get your 'proper' roofer out?

Just be frank and honest - tell the guy you simply don't know what the correct/best solution is, and you want some time to find out - end of. You'll be in touch when you have made a decision.

Have you paid hm the full amount yet? Even if so, it ain't an issue - he's acknowledged that there are issues, so he is 'liable'. Once you find out the 'correct' solution, then you can give him a chance to carry it out?