Section 75 - Charge Back on some windows

WindowMistake

Hello My Learn’d Friends

I would be really grateful for some assistance as to my next move.

2 years ago I agreed a contract with a joinery firm to make some new wooden windows for my home. The invoice was for £25,000 and I paid a £10,000 deposit.

I wanted to support a local company.

The Ltd company almost immediately went bust.

I was gutted because I usually pay all deposits with a credit card, but for this one I didn’t. 

The Director / Owner of the company laid off his staff and decided to become a one man band, in a new Ltd Company and would honour the old contract. He had purchased the timber to make the windows, so it was just going to be his labour moving forward.

So I made him sign a new contract in the new companies name.

After 6 months he told me he had started working on the windows and they would be ready by the end of the year. 

I had made interim payments thinking the windows were almost ready.
The windows didn’t arrive, and my existing windows were drafty and leaking and so we had a pretty miserable winter.
The spring came and went with no windows, he fell off a step ladder and fractured his leg. 

Then his van broke down and then the bonnet flew up and broke the windscreen, then it failed its MoT and then it broke down again. 

He delivered 2 windows of the 12 I ordered. But these windows were the two that I asked to be delivered last. (The contractor that I had employed to help install them wasted a week being unable to fit the windows).

My beautiful house is a mess with no room able to be finished and the exterior looks a mess even though I spent 3 months stripping off the old paint, replacing brinks, repointing with lime mortar and repainting.

In June 25 some 18 months after the window order and a year late. The window supplier asked for some more funds so I paid £700 by credit card to the new company.

The windows were guaranteed to be delivered before it got cold in Oct.

All the time that he said he has been working on my windows, he has actually been working for other people. 

Here I am today, with four windows been delivered. The quality is poor, and one of the windows I have noticed has paint peeling on what will be the external face.

Stupidly I have realised that the windows will have no warranty or guarantee.

So can I under Section 75 do a charge back on the windows, as they new company, where I paid £750 had taken over the contract?

I would be grateful for any advice or assistance that you guys could give.

I have tried to help the guy out, but the stress this clown has caused me has been off the charts and for a second year we live in a cold and draughty home.

CliveOfIndia

WindowMistake said:

I was gutted because I usually pay all deposits with a credit card, but for this one I didn’t. 


So can I under Section 75 do a charge back on the windows, as they new company, where I paid £750 had taken over the contract?

S75 is different to Chargeback.

Since you imply you didn't pay for any portion by credit card, S75 is not an option.

If you paid by debit card, you could do a chargeback for the amount you paid on card.

If you paid by cash/bank transfer then unfortunately neither option is available.

eskbanker

If you have a contract with the new company and have paid something towards it with a credit card, then you do have the option of pursuing a section 75 claim against them if you can demonstrate a breach of that contract, and resultant losses.  You could potentially use chargeback, which is a different process, but perhaps less relevant here.

The card company would require evidence of the breach, which might, for example, require the windows to be examined by an independent expert.

eskbanker

CliveOfIndia said:
Since you imply you didn't pay for any portion by credit card, S75 is not an option.

From OP:   

WindowMistake said:

In June 25 some 18 months after the window order and a year late. The window supplier asked for some more funds so I paid £700 by credit card to the new company.

born_again

CliveOfIndia said:

WindowMistake said:

I was gutted because I usually pay all deposits with a credit card, but for this one I didn’t. 


So can I under Section 75 do a charge back on the windows, as they new company, where I paid £750 had taken over the contract?

S75 is different to Chargeback.

Since you imply you didn't pay for any portion by credit card, S75 is not an option.

If you paid by debit card, you could do a chargeback for the amount you paid on card.

If you paid by cash/bank transfer then unfortunately neither option is available.

Not from 2 years ago, they cant.

One to talk to car provider about on S75. Given old & new company. 

WindowMistake

Thanks Eskbanker

Yes I did pay £700 by credit card. 
The confusion may be because I used the phrase “Chargeback” for this I apologise, this is just due to my lack of experience in the matter.

So I could progress this through Section 75. 

Is it a difficult / time consuming process?

I start a new (dream) job in late spring this year and want to get new windows ordered which is on a 10 -12 week lead time.

Does anyone have an real world experience of the complexities of Section 75? And it is mentioned that there could be a claim for damages, how is that proven / calculated? I am currently 24 months without windows.

Grumpy_chap

There is a lot here so I think this is the correct summary of the pertinent facts:

• 2024 - signed a contract with A Ltd for £25k for windows
• Paid A Ltd £10k first stage payment by bank transfer
• A Ltd ceased trading
• Signed a new contract with B Ltd (same Owner / Director as A Ltd) for windows
• QUESTION - Did OP pay anything to B Ltd?
• Delays, excuses, partial delivery, quality issues
• June 2025 - paid an additional amount £700 to B Ltd by credit card
• Performance remains unsatisfactory

Is that the correct summary and sequence of events?

CC offer two possible routes to recover funds.

Chargeback is the equivalent of stopping the cheque and, I understand, cannot recover more than the actual amount paid by CC, so that would be £700 in this case.  There are time limits to chargeback, usually 120 days, so would be out of time for the payment in June 2025.

S75 is a statutory process whereby the CC is equally and severally liable with the provider.  The £700 payment was made by CC to B Ltd. 
I do not believe that the CC will be liable under S75 for the £10k paid to A Ltd as that is a separate legal entity.  I therefore think the first £10k has to be considered as irrecoverable.  The exception would be if A Ltd paid the OP a refund and then OP paid B Ltd - that is sort of what *may* have happened but I doubt there is the paper trail to support that sequence of transactions.
For whatever the OP has paid to B Ltd, that *may* be covered under S75 as the CC is liable for the full value of the payments made regardless of the proportion that was paid by CC.  I am unclear as to how much the OP has paid to B Ltd - it could be zero, it could be £15k, it could be £700, it could be £15,700.  Can the OP clarify?
However, by the time the extra £700 was paid by CC, the OP was already in dispute with the trader and I cannot believe that S75 was ever intended to provide a route for recompense of the full value when a subsequent payment is made and dispute pre-existing.  Quite possibly, S75 *might* still be available for the full value paid to B Ltd as I doubt the legislators drafting S75 would have considered the scenario of an extra payment being made once already in dispute and by CC just to invoke the S75 rights...

WindowMistake said:

Hello My Learn’d Friends

I would be really grateful for some assistance as to my next move.

2 years ago I agreed a contract with a joinery firm to make some new wooden windows for my home. The invoice was for £25,000 and I paid a £10,000 deposit.

I wanted to support a local company.

The Ltd company almost immediately went bust.

I was gutted because I usually pay all deposits with a credit card, but for this one I didn’t. 

The Director / Owner of the company laid off his staff and decided to become a one man band, in a new Ltd Company and would honour the old contract. He had purchased the timber to make the windows, so it was just going to be his labour moving forward.

So I made him sign a new contract in the new companies name.

After 6 months he told me he had started working on the windows and they would be ready by the end of the year. 

I had made interim payments thinking the windows were almost ready.
The windows didn’t arrive, and my existing windows were drafty and leaking and so we had a pretty miserable winter.
The spring came and went with no windows, he fell off a step ladder and fractured his leg. 

Then his van broke down and then the bonnet flew up and broke the windscreen, then it failed its MoT and then it broke down again. 

He delivered 2 windows of the 12 I ordered. But these windows were the two that I asked to be delivered last. (The contractor that I had employed to help install them wasted a week being unable to fit the windows).

My beautiful house is a mess with no room able to be finished and the exterior looks a mess even though I spent 3 months stripping off the old paint, replacing brinks, repointing with lime mortar and repainting.

In June 25 some 18 months after the window order and a year late. The window supplier asked for some more funds so I paid £700 by credit card to the new company.

The windows were guaranteed to be delivered before it got cold in Oct.

All the time that he said he has been working on my windows, he has actually been working for other people. 

Here I am today, with four windows been delivered. The quality is poor, and one of the windows I have noticed has paint peeling on what will be the external face.

Stupidly I have realised that the windows will have no warranty or guarantee.

So can I under Section 75 do a charge back on the windows, as they new company, where I paid £750 had taken over the contract?

I would be grateful for any advice or assistance that you guys could give.

I have tried to help the guy out, but the stress this clown has caused me has been off the charts and for a second year we live in a cold and draughty home.

eskbanker

WindowMistake said:

So I could progress this through Section 75. 

Is it a difficult / time consuming process?

It varies according to circumstances, but this one is potentially quite complex, so expect it to be measured in months rather than weeks.

WindowMistake said:

And it is mentioned that there could be a claim for damages, how is that proven / calculated? I am currently 24 months without windows.

If you've made partial payments towards the contract then your claim will likely be for these to be refunded, freeing you to use another company, although if a competitor would be substantially more expensive then it may be possible to have this factored into the equation.

Woodstok2000

born_again said:

CliveOfIndia said:

WindowMistake said:

I was gutted because I usually pay all deposits with a credit card, but for this one I didn’t. 


So can I under Section 75 do a charge back on the windows, as they new company, where I paid £750 had taken over the contract?

S75 is different to Chargeback.

Since you imply you didn't pay for any portion by credit card, S75 is not an option.

If you paid by debit card, you could do a chargeback for the amount you paid on card.

If you paid by cash/bank transfer then unfortunately neither option is available.

Not from 2 years ago, they cant.

One to talk to car provider about on S75. Given old & new company. 

You can definitely try a chargeback as the time limit is from completion of the order or service, not from the point of payment.

eskbanker

Grumpy_chap said:

I do not believe that the CC will be liable under S75 for the £10k paid to A Ltd as that is a separate legal entity.  I therefore think the first £10k has to be considered as irrecoverable.  The exception would be if A Ltd paid the OP a refund and then OP paid B Ltd - that is sort of what *may* have happened but I doubt there is the paper trail to support that sequence of transactions.

As ever, the devil will be in the detail, and in particular the wording of the contract with B, but, unlike chargeback, s75 puts the creditor on the hook for the entire value of a contract (strictly item), rather than simply that component funded by credit card, so if OP had paid £10K to B in cash, for example, that's still payment towards the contract value and thereby in scope for a s75 claim, i.e. some form of credit from A ought to be treated the same way.  However, if the B contract has a value of £15K rather than £25K (recognising the payment to the old company) then that would scupper recovery prospects.

There is also the question of how the stock belonging to A was dealt with on liquidation, but that shouldn't be one for OP to be concerned about....

born_again

Woodstok2000 said:

born_again said:

CliveOfIndia said:

WindowMistake said:

I was gutted because I usually pay all deposits with a credit card, but for this one I didn’t. 


So can I under Section 75 do a charge back on the windows, as they new company, where I paid £750 had taken over the contract?

S75 is different to Chargeback.

Since you imply you didn't pay for any portion by credit card, S75 is not an option.

If you paid by debit card, you could do a chargeback for the amount you paid on card.

If you paid by cash/bank transfer then unfortunately neither option is available.

Not from 2 years ago, they cant.

One to talk to car provider about on S75. Given old & new company. 

You can definitely try a chargeback as the time limit is from completion of the order or service, not from the point of payment.

up to a max of 540 days from date of debit. For future dates items. 

As no actual dates are given. Other than June 25 & 18 months late. Depending on exact dates on this is over the timescale for a chargeback. OP should have started process, when they did not turn up