Won CCJ refund for faulty car – do I legally have to give the car back?

Undervalued

eskbanker said:

Undervalued said:
It is not for any of these bodies to give you legal advice.

Or this forum, for that matter!

Indeed!.....

BikingBud

sheramber said:

BikingBud said:

klb1985 said:

Hi all,

I’m hoping someone can clarify the legal position for me, as I’m getting conflicting or unclear guidance.

I bought a used car through a private trader which turned out to be faulty. I requested a refund under the Consumer Rights Act and offered to return the car, but the seller refused to engage or collect it. I then took the matter to court.

The court awarded me a money-only County Court Judgment (refund + costs). There was no order to return the vehicle. The seller did not defend the claim and did not counterclaim for the return of the car.

The judgment is now being enforced by High Court Enforcement Officers, and the seller is paying by instalments. He has recently contacted me saying that once the payments are finished, he expects to collect the car.

I have already spoken with Trading Standards, the Small Claims Court, and the High Court Enforcement Officers, but none of them are able to give a definitive answer on whether the car must legally be returned, as they each say it’s outside their remit.

My questions are:

• Is the car now legally mine to keep/sell/scrap, given the money judgment and his earlier refusal to accept return?
• Or do I have a legal obligation to give the car back, even though the court did not order this?

I’m not looking to do anything unreasonable,  I just want to understand the correct legal position so I don’t do the wrong thing.

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

Advise them it is available for collection at their convenience. 

Do you still have the V5 in your name as responsiblities for MOT, insurance, fines etc will go to the registered keeper and you may wish to advise also that you will transfer the car back to the trader immediately 

Risky,  if the person doesn’t keep up payments. 

But they have a CCJ to rely upon. If they stop the HCEO come out again.

Note sure what if any benefit there is to retaining ownership and as a few others have highlighted there is risk of accruing costs.

Deregister:

How do I tell the DVLA I no longer own a car?

If you have sold or transferred a vehicle without a log book, you must write to DVLA with:

1. your name and address.
2. the vehicle registration number.
3. the make and model.
4. the exact date of sale.
5. the name and address of the new keeper or motor trader.

Provide a simple letter advising that their goods are ready for collection.

Give the sour bun back to the baker.

ETA - to be sure we know the potential losses, what was the value of the vehicle and how long is the repayment plan for?

If they expect you to store their goods until the plan is settled I would offer the service at a reasonable daily storage cost:

Typical car storage costs per week

Car storage prices vary based on storage type and additional services:

Type of storage	Price per week	Price per month
Outdoor storage	£10 - £25	£40 - £110

A_Geordie

Undervalued said:

klb1985 said:

The seller has been given numerous opportunities to collect the car throughout this whole process which has been going on now since June last year, they have ignored all contact right up until the high court enforcement. 

They could only lawfully have collected the car if they gave you a full refund, which as I understand it, is what you were seeking. They were not willing to do that, However, a court has now ordered them to so, therefor if / when you receive all the money you cease to have any right to the car.

I would point out that obtaining a CCJ doesn't give the OP the right to a lien (retain the car) pending full payment unless the court order says as much. The CRA also doesn't grant the OP a legal right as a consumer to retain the car until a full refund has been received. I think it can be safely said that the OP has ended the contract and as such section 20(7) applies: 

(7) From the time when the right is exercised—
...
(b)the consumer has a duty to make the goods available for collection by the trader or (if there is an agreement for the consumer to return rejected goods) to return them as agreed.

So the OP no longer owns the car and has to make it available to them but is not legally entitled to hold onto the car once the right to reject has been exercised. The seller has indicated that they will collect once the instalments have all been received, so it is up to the OP to decide if that is acceptable or not. If it is, the OP has responsibility to ensure they do not cause damage whilst in their possession. 

Otherwise, other options for the OP are (at their own risk): 

1. Issue a notice under the Torts (Interference with Goods Act) 1977 requiring the seller to collect the car within a reasonable period, otherwise the OP has the right to sell the car. Proceeds must be kept and handed over to the seller less any deductions or costs in relation to the sale. There are some formalities that need to be complied with but it is very simple and straightforward. A bit of google research would resolve this. 

2. Require the seller to collect the car and if it is not collected by the stated date, then the OP can consider the seller's car to be trespassing and a reasonable charge of £X per day will be applied until the collection date. The charge represents a reasonable sum for storing the car on the OP's land to the seller's benefit.

3. A combination of #1 and #2 above. Where a daily charge is applied, this could be deducted from the proceeds of the sale provided those charges begin after the date to collect the car has expired. This is because the Torts Act requires 3 months notice if fees are owed prior to the notice being given. 

visidigi

I just hope the OP stopped using the car as soon as they started the process of rejection. even if the seller didn't respond otherwise this could get quite messy(ier).

TELLIT01

I don't understand how anybody would expect to retain goods after being given a full refund on them.

saajan_12

You have as much right to keep the car as they had to the money before you went to court. Ie they were in the wrong (it seems now) and owed you a refund, you owed them the car back.

They should have given the money back before court but since they didn't, you went to court to enforce it and they are paying the court costs / recovery fees on top. You should give the car back but if you don't they can go to court, add on court costs, etc on top. 

While not legally sound, they seem to be happy to let you keep it until the payments are completed, so maybe go with that and return it after - if not sooner. 

klb1985

Thanks everyone for your comments. I have since spoken to a solicitor who have stated that, as the vehicle was not included in the ccj or enforcement and no court has stated the car should be returned, I have legal rights to the car and can do as I wish. The private trader ceased communication early on before the ccj proceedings commenced, with requests to collect the vehicle being ignored. In regards to the HCEO installment arrangement, the seller has failed to make the first payment.

A_Geordie

I'd have to question the advice given you to by that solicitor, which in my opinion is not legally sound advice. You can of course do as you please with the car based perhaps based on the assumption of the seller's conduct, but there will be the inherent risk that the seller could sue you for the value of the car within the next 6 years.

If the period of time between now and the demand to return the car increases and doesn't engage, the higher chance the court would take the view the car has been abandoned, in which case you are free to do with it as you wish.

Jumblebumble

klb1985 said:

Thanks everyone for your comments. I have since spoken to a solicitor who have stated that, as the vehicle was not included in the ccj or enforcement and no court has stated the car should be returned, I have legal rights to the car and can do as I wish. The private trader ceased communication early on before the ccj proceedings commenced, with requests to collect the vehicle being ignored. In regards to the HCEO installment arrangement, the seller has failed to make the first payment.

Have you obtained the solicitors view in writing?
Otherwise you may find as our late Queen used to say
"Recollections may vary"

born_again

klb1985 said:

Thanks everyone for your comments. I have since spoken to a solicitor who have stated that, as the vehicle was not included in the ccj or enforcement and no court has stated the car should be returned, I have legal rights to the car and can do as I wish. The private trader ceased communication early on before the ccj proceedings commenced, with requests to collect the vehicle being ignored. In regards to the HCEO installment arrangement, the seller has failed to make the first payment.

2 words that really do not go together in  this case.
Either they are a trader, or they are a private seller eg. member of the public selling their own car?