Will Club Lloyds know I have set up 3 new direct debits?

masonic

friolento said:

I asked Gemini what DD data gets sent for a CASS switch. This is what it says...

Interesting, here's what Gemini told me. The prompt was: "During a CASS current account switch, what information is shared in order for Direct Debits to be transferred to the new account? Does the information include the last payment date?"
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When you use the Current Account Switch Service (CASS), the transfer of Direct Debits is handled through a secure exchange of data between your old and new banks via the Bacs system.

Information Shared During the Switch

To ensure your bills continue to be paid without interruption, your old bank provides the following core information to your new bank:

• Originator Details: The name of the company or organization authorized to collect the money (e.g., your energy provider or gym).

• Service User Number (SUN): A unique 6-digit identifier for the company collecting the Direct Debit.1

• Instruction Reference: The unique reference number assigned to your specific payment mandate (often your customer or policy number).

• Account Holders' Names: To verify the mandate is being moved to the correct person(s).

Does it include the "Last Payment Date"?

No, the last payment date is typically not part of the standard CASS data transfer. The CASS process focuses on moving the mandate (the legal permission to take money) rather than your transaction history. Because your transaction history is not transferred to the new account, the new bank does not "see" when the last payment occurred.2

Why this matters

• Redirection Period: Even though the last payment date isn't shared, CASS includes a 13-month (minimum) redirection service. If a company tries to take a payment from your old account, the bank recognizes the switch and automatically forwards the request to your new account.3

• Company Notifications: As part of the switch, an "Advice of Change" (known as an ADDACS message) is sent to the company.4 This tells them your new account details so they can update their own records for the next billing cycle.5

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• Check Your Schedule: Since the new bank doesn't know your specific billing dates, it's a good idea to keep a copy of your old statements.6 This helps you ensure that payments due around the switch date are processed correctly.

Would you like me to help you draft a checklist of what to look for on your first statement after the switch?

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In my case it did not use the Pay.UK CASS Participant Handbook, so I followed up with: "Can you verify the above information is correct using the Pay.UK CASS Participant Handbook?"

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Based on the operational principles outlined by Pay.UK (the operator of CASS) and the technical standards for the Bacs system, I can confirm that the previous information is correct.

While the "Participant Handbook" is a restricted document for banks, the publicly available Account Switching Service Definition and the Bacs Service User Guide (which governs Direct Debits) provide the verification you requested.

1. Data Shared for Direct Debit Transfer

When a switch is initiated, the old bank (the "Sosing Participant") sends a data file to the new bank (the "Gaining Participant"). According to Pay.UK and Bacs standards, the information shared for each Direct Debit includes:

• Service User Number (SUN): The 6-digit identifier of the company collecting the payment.

• Direct Debit Reference: The unique reference the company uses to identify your specific mandate (e.g., your customer number).

• Originator Name: The name of the organization.

• Payer Name: Your name as it appears on the mandate.

• Account Details: The old sort code and account number (to link the mandate).

2. Is the "Last Payment Date" included?

No. The "last payment date" is not a mandatory field in the standard CASS data transfer message.

• Technical Reason: The Bacs system, which facilitates the transfer, uses a message format called ADDACS (Advices of Alteration to Direct Debit Instruction). This message is designed to update the company on where to collect from next; it does not carry historical payment data or the date of the most recent collection.

• Operational Policy: Pay.UK's service definition focuses on the transfer of the mandate (the authority to pay) and the redirection of future payments. The banks are not required to exchange transaction history (ledger data) as part of the core 7-day switching process.

3. Verification from Pay.UK Principles

The Pay.UK Bacs System Principles confirm that the "redirection" mechanism is the primary safeguard. Because the new bank does not know your specific billing cycle or last payment date:

• Redirection Service: A central redirection database (the "Extended Industry Sort Code Directory") automatically points any attempt to collect from the old account to the new one for at least 13 months (often extended to 3 years).

• The Guarantee: Because the banks recognize they aren't sharing payment schedules, the Current Account Switch Guarantee explicitly covers you if a payment is missed or taken late due to this lack of schedule synchronization.

Summary: Your new bank receives the authority to pay the bills, but they do not receive a "calendar" of when those bills were last paid. They rely on the companies (Originators) to receive an automated notification of your new details and update their own billing cycles accordingly.

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And this is why AI Chatbots cannot be relied upon for reliable factual information. Although I think it is correct that the "Pay.UK CASS Participant Handbook" is not publicly available, as I cannot find it on the internet. Perhaps your version of Gemini hallucinated it

eskbanker

masonic said:
When a switch is initiated, the old bank (the "Sosing Participant") sends a data file to the new bank (the "Gaining Participant"). 

Another reason to be suspicious of AI!

masonic

eskbanker said:

masonic said:
When a switch is initiated, the old bank (the "Sosing Participant") sends a data file to the new bank (the "Gaining Participant"). 

Another reason to be suspicious of AI!

You have seen the AI response I got to a question about words in the English language with three "r"s yes?

Anyway, after some non-AI probing, I have unearthed https://docs.findock.com/payment-processors/bacs-ddi

This is a description of the BACS-DDI system, which is used to update DD mandates through the Automated Direct Debit Instruction Service (AUDDIS), which is the underlying system used by CASS.

At the top level, this is a container for multiple Standard Records, each of which contains information for a single DD mandate to be created/updated/cancelled. The Standard Record contains information about the source and destination sort codes and account numbers, destination account type, amount, company name, mandate ID, and name of the account holder. I do not see anywhere within the Standard 18 file to place a last collection date. That doesn't rule out sharing outside of this system, but suggests it isn't integral to the process.

eskbanker

masonic said:

eskbanker said:

masonic said:
When a switch is initiated, the old bank (the "Sosing Participant") sends a data file to the new bank (the "Gaining Participant"). 

Another reason to be suspicious of AI!

You have seen the AI response I got to a question about words in the English language with three "r"s yes?

Perhaps influenced by a Blackadder scene (better in full video/audio form):

• Lieutenant George: All right, sir. Umm... I spy with my little eye something beginning with "R"
• Private Baldrick: Army.
• Captain Blackadder: For God's sake, Baldrick. Army starts with an "A". He's looking for something that starts with an "R". Rrrrrrr.
• Private Baldrick: Motorbike
• Captain Blackadder: What?
• Private Baldrick: Well, a motorbike starts with an rrrrm rrrrm rrrrm.

Ballard

Thanks to those who took the time to investigate my point. I’m not surprised by the answer, but I still think that it would have made sense to have included the original agreement date.