Advice on selling a car

B0bbyEwing

Mildly_Miffed said:

B0bbyEwing said:

I'm pretty decided now that I'm going to try and move my car on which I only bought 2 months ago. I bought at £1.8k - £1.9k & it's going to cost another £1k - £1.3k to put everything right.

Define "put right"...

Is it legally driveable?
What are the issues?

These days, £2k is pretty much bottom end for anything with more than negligible MOT, and which isn't being nursed into the ground. Spending a grand plus on that...? You're either a perfectionist, or it really is spares-or-repair.

As for test drives and insurance... Yes, you need to check they're insured. Otherwise you're on the hook legally.
Get a feel for the individual before agreeing to anything. If they're going out on their own in it, they leave something of value, such as their licence or the keys to their car. If there's questions over whether the car is legally roadworthy, don't let them drive it - but then, you shouldn't be, either.

WBAC will give you buttons, especially if the issues are noticeable.

I did define. To isthisforreal as I wondered if their response was for real. 

It drives fine. The bodywork isn't hanging off or anything. 
It needs a timing belt & water pump which I was prepared for & bought accepting this. 
But I've ran in to other things along the way.

It needs certainly 1 glow plug which from research will forever prevent the DPF from regenerating until it's replaced & therefore over time that's going to cause a DPF issue unless I get the glow plug sorted. The glow plug isn't the cheap version, it's the £120ish version with the sensors. Then there's fitting. Shouldn't be massive amounts but depends what a garage charges for a) their time and the plug. I can get genuine off ebay for £111 right now. £120 in other places. A garage could charge anything for it.

I wasn't aware at the time of purchase about an oil pickup seal which when it goes can cause a lot of trouble & on my mileage it's heavily recommended to get it done. The part itself is nothing (£10 genuine), it's the labour. It's also finding a garage that knows workarounds to do this job without doing it the long drawn out expensive way. Allegedly there's awkwardly accessible bolts that there's a workaround to get to to save you time & money but not all garages know this & instead will just remove everything at cost. One garage wanted to put in a new clutch as part of the job. Totally unnecessary. They could change the seal, they were just going the long way about it. This job is £250 MINIMUM & that's what a garage who knows what they're doing will charge. Problem is - that's a 2-3 hour drive from me. 

So to me that's all just general maintenance type stuff. It's just that it's all at once & maybe why the previous owner got rid. 
The last service history was 2017 but I found a sticker in the air box which indicates when the timing belt was last done which if correct (&going off MOT history I believe it is) then the timing belt is already 1yr overdue. 

I appreciate many have the opinion that £2k and under is basically a car that's falling apart. These are maybe people driving around in financed cars or can afford £15k cars & that's what they're used to so they look down on anything less than. 
I've had cars previously in this price range and I've known others who've also bought in this price range and had cars without issue that have lasted years. 

So it's not a rule that £2k = constantly broke or it's just scrap or whatever. 

Mildly_Miffed

B0bbyEwing said:

Mildly_Miffed said:

B0bbyEwing said:

I'm pretty decided now that I'm going to try and move my car on which I only bought 2 months ago. I bought at £1.8k - £1.9k & it's going to cost another £1k - £1.3k to put everything right.

Define "put right"...

Is it legally driveable?
What are the issues?

These days, £2k is pretty much bottom end for anything with more than negligible MOT, and which isn't being nursed into the ground. Spending a grand plus on that...? You're either a perfectionist, or it really is spares-or-repair.

As for test drives and insurance... Yes, you need to check they're insured. Otherwise you're on the hook legally.
Get a feel for the individual before agreeing to anything. If they're going out on their own in it, they leave something of value, such as their licence or the keys to their car. If there's questions over whether the car is legally roadworthy, don't let them drive it - but then, you shouldn't be, either.

WBAC will give you buttons, especially if the issues are noticeable.

I did define. To isthisforreal as I wondered if their response was for real. 

It drives fine. The bodywork isn't hanging off or anything. 
It needs a timing belt & water pump which I was prepared for & bought accepting this. 
But I've ran in to other things along the way.

It needs certainly 1 glow plug which from research will forever prevent the DPF from regenerating until it's replaced & therefore over time that's going to cause a DPF issue unless I get the glow plug sorted. The glow plug isn't the cheap version, it's the £120ish version with the sensors. Then there's fitting. Shouldn't be massive amounts but depends what a garage charges for a) their time and the plug. I can get genuine off ebay for £111 right now. £120 in other places. A garage could charge anything for it.

I wasn't aware at the time of purchase about an oil pickup seal which when it goes can cause a lot of trouble & on my mileage it's heavily recommended to get it done. The part itself is nothing (£10 genuine), it's the labour. It's also finding a garage that knows workarounds to do this job without doing it the long drawn out expensive way. Allegedly there's awkwardly accessible bolts that there's a workaround to get to to save you time & money but not all garages know this & instead will just remove everything at cost. One garage wanted to put in a new clutch as part of the job. Totally unnecessary. They could change the seal, they were just going the long way about it. This job is £250 MINIMUM & that's what a garage who knows what they're doing will charge. Problem is - that's a 2-3 hour drive from me. 

So to me that's all just general maintenance type stuff. It's just that it's all at once & maybe why the previous owner got rid. 
The last service history was 2017 but I found a sticker in the air box which indicates when the timing belt was last done which if correct (&going off MOT history I believe it is) then the timing belt is already 1yr overdue. 

I appreciate many have the opinion that £2k and under is basically a car that's falling apart. These are maybe people driving around in financed cars or can afford £15k cars & that's what they're used to so they look down on anything less than. 
I've had cars previously in this price range and I've known others who've also bought in this price range and had cars without issue that have lasted years. 

So it's not a rule that £2k = constantly broke or it's just scrap or whatever. 

So it's just a pile of deferred maintenance that nobody's bothered doing? Not actual faults...?
You bought it without thinking about the history, then realised what you'd got...?

If the gearbox is coming out, it's daft not to put a new clutch in - zero additional labour, just the parts cost.

But, yeh, drive it into the ground or flog it on to somebody who will.

paul_c123

The faults are (probably) average for the age/mileage/make/model of car, so I'd not worry about it being at death's door etc. Just be honest when advertising and describing it, and if any questions come up. I would advise private sale at the lower end of the price range on eg Auto Trader.

The problem with webuyanycar or similar, is they'll definitely ask "Is there anything mechanical that needs doing?", and they'll either defer payment for a few days until its back at an auction centre and thoroughly inspected; or ask for an additional amount for fast payment (even more for instant - which is crazy but its another topic).

If you describe it accurately including num keys, service history, condition, etc then the price they quote should be honoured. There are a mix of stories online about how people have achieved the promised price; and others who have been chipped, sometimes severely. I suspect in the latter cases, they didn't describe adequately in at least some of those sales.

These are the standardised terms for the cosmetic grading system they use:

Grade 1
• Vehicle panels may have minor defects including dents up to 30mm, scratches up to 25mm
• Chips up to 10mm on glass
• Bumpers may have areas of scratches up to 100mm
• Wheels can be affected with scratches or corrosion
• Interior may have minor scuffing due to wear & tear and replacement of minor trim items may also be required

Grade 2
The vehicle may have numerous defects as in Grade 1 plus 1 of the following:
• Paint defect larger than 25mm on a panel or 100mm on a bumper
• Dent larger than 30mm
• Defect to glass larger than 10mm
• Significant trim / part could also be required

Grade 3
The vehicle may have defects as in Grade 1 & 2 plus it could also include or have a combination of:
• Up to 5 panels with paint defects larger than 25mm or 100mm on a bumper
• Up to 3 panels / bumpers affected with dents larger than 30mm
• Significant trims or parts could also be required

Grade 4
The vehicle may have defects as in Grade 1, 2 & 3 it could also include or have a combination of:
• A panel with significant damage i.e. over 30% or a significant crack to a bumper
• Up to 10 panels with paint defects larger than 25mm or 100mm on a bumper
• Up to 7 panels / bumpers affected with dents larger than 30mm
• Multiple trims or parts could also be required

Grade 5
The vehicle may have defects as in Grade 1, 2, 3 & 4 it could also include:
• More than 2 panels / bumpers with significant cracks or damage i.e. over 30% of the panel
• 8 or more panels / bumpers affected with dents larger than 30mm
• 11 panels or more with paint defects larger than 25mm or 100mm on a bumper
• Up to 1 structural panel with significant damage i.e. over 30% of the panel
• Significant tears, holes or cuts in convertible roofs

There is also Motorway, Carwow, etc who offer a car buying service.

B0bbyEwing

Mildly_Miffed said:

B0bbyEwing said:

Mildly_Miffed said:

B0bbyEwing said:

I'm pretty decided now that I'm going to try and move my car on which I only bought 2 months ago. I bought at £1.8k - £1.9k & it's going to cost another £1k - £1.3k to put everything right.

Define "put right"...

Is it legally driveable?
What are the issues?

These days, £2k is pretty much bottom end for anything with more than negligible MOT, and which isn't being nursed into the ground. Spending a grand plus on that...? You're either a perfectionist, or it really is spares-or-repair.

As for test drives and insurance... Yes, you need to check they're insured. Otherwise you're on the hook legally.
Get a feel for the individual before agreeing to anything. If they're going out on their own in it, they leave something of value, such as their licence or the keys to their car. If there's questions over whether the car is legally roadworthy, don't let them drive it - but then, you shouldn't be, either.

WBAC will give you buttons, especially if the issues are noticeable.

I did define. To isthisforreal as I wondered if their response was for real. 

It drives fine. The bodywork isn't hanging off or anything. 
It needs a timing belt & water pump which I was prepared for & bought accepting this. 
But I've ran in to other things along the way.

It needs certainly 1 glow plug which from research will forever prevent the DPF from regenerating until it's replaced & therefore over time that's going to cause a DPF issue unless I get the glow plug sorted. The glow plug isn't the cheap version, it's the £120ish version with the sensors. Then there's fitting. Shouldn't be massive amounts but depends what a garage charges for a) their time and the plug. I can get genuine off ebay for £111 right now. £120 in other places. A garage could charge anything for it.

I wasn't aware at the time of purchase about an oil pickup seal which when it goes can cause a lot of trouble & on my mileage it's heavily recommended to get it done. The part itself is nothing (£10 genuine), it's the labour. It's also finding a garage that knows workarounds to do this job without doing it the long drawn out expensive way. Allegedly there's awkwardly accessible bolts that there's a workaround to get to to save you time & money but not all garages know this & instead will just remove everything at cost. One garage wanted to put in a new clutch as part of the job. Totally unnecessary. They could change the seal, they were just going the long way about it. This job is £250 MINIMUM & that's what a garage who knows what they're doing will charge. Problem is - that's a 2-3 hour drive from me. 

So to me that's all just general maintenance type stuff. It's just that it's all at once & maybe why the previous owner got rid. 
The last service history was 2017 but I found a sticker in the air box which indicates when the timing belt was last done which if correct (&going off MOT history I believe it is) then the timing belt is already 1yr overdue. 

I appreciate many have the opinion that £2k and under is basically a car that's falling apart. These are maybe people driving around in financed cars or can afford £15k cars & that's what they're used to so they look down on anything less than. 
I've had cars previously in this price range and I've known others who've also bought in this price range and had cars without issue that have lasted years. 

So it's not a rule that £2k = constantly broke or it's just scrap or whatever. 

So it's just a pile of deferred maintenance that nobody's bothered doing? Not actual faults...?
You bought it without thinking about the history, then realised what you'd got...?

If the gearbox is coming out, it's daft not to put a new clutch in - zero additional labour, just the parts cost.

But, yeh, drive it into the ground or flog it on to somebody who will.

I never said faults. I said to put right. Fair enough this may have given you the impression of there being 'faults' but yeah deferred maintenance is exactly what it is.

I did think about the history. I knew what it came with and I was fully prepared to have that done, expecting around £400 for it, ish.
What I hadn't planned on was this oil seal that I was totally unaware of (more on that when I respond to your gearbox comment) which turns out to be a fairly labour intensive job & also serious if you don't get it done.

And on test driving it showed absolutely zero faults whatsoever. Started ok, ran ok. It ran ok for a week or so & then I got 'service now' messages, thinking it needed a service. No problem I was planning on doing that anyway. Until I then discovered it doesn't mean 'service' at all, it means fault. Digging further & it's the glow plug. Dig even further & it's not a cheap glowplug either, it's one with a stupid sensor that costs a lot. As I say, this took over a week of driving to show itself. Now it shows itself regular. I can only go off what it was like at the time. 

And to add on to that is the fact I then discover it wont do a DPF regen if there's a duff glowplug, meaning the DPF will steadily clog.

As for the gearbox, yeah I get that it's daft not to put a new clutch in but that's not the point I was making. The point is, there's a workaround to access these awkward bolts where you can do this oil seal quicker & less time consuming. It's just a question of whether the person doing the job knows about it or not. If they do then they can keep the costs down. If they don't then they're going a very long way about the job & ramping costs up. The gearbox doesn't NEED to be removed to do the job. It can be done without, if you know what you're doing.

But even if you know what you're doing it's still £250 to add on to the other stuff I mentioned. 

B0bbyEwing

paul_c123 said:

The faults are (probably) average for the age/mileage/make/model of car, so I'd not worry about it being at death's door etc. Just be honest when advertising and describing it, and if any questions come up. I would advise private sale at the lower end of the price range on eg Auto Trader.

The problem with webuyanycar or similar, is they'll definitely ask "Is there anything mechanical that needs doing?", and they'll either defer payment for a few days until its back at an auction centre and thoroughly inspected; or ask for an additional amount for fast payment (even more for instant - which is crazy but its another topic).

If you describe it accurately including num keys, service history, condition, etc then the price they quote should be honoured. There are a mix of stories online about how people have achieved the promised price; and others who have been chipped, sometimes severely. I suspect in the latter cases, they didn't describe adequately in at least some of those sales.

These are the standardised terms for the cosmetic grading system they use:

Grade 1
• Vehicle panels may have minor defects including dents up to 30mm, scratches up to 25mm
• Chips up to 10mm on glass
• Bumpers may have areas of scratches up to 100mm
• Wheels can be affected with scratches or corrosion
• Interior may have minor scuffing due to wear & tear and replacement of minor trim items may also be required

Grade 2
The vehicle may have numerous defects as in Grade 1 plus 1 of the following:
• Paint defect larger than 25mm on a panel or 100mm on a bumper
• Dent larger than 30mm
• Defect to glass larger than 10mm
• Significant trim / part could also be required

Grade 3
The vehicle may have defects as in Grade 1 & 2 plus it could also include or have a combination of:
• Up to 5 panels with paint defects larger than 25mm or 100mm on a bumper
• Up to 3 panels / bumpers affected with dents larger than 30mm
• Significant trims or parts could also be required

Grade 4
The vehicle may have defects as in Grade 1, 2 & 3 it could also include or have a combination of:
• A panel with significant damage i.e. over 30% or a significant crack to a bumper
• Up to 10 panels with paint defects larger than 25mm or 100mm on a bumper
• Up to 7 panels / bumpers affected with dents larger than 30mm
• Multiple trims or parts could also be required

Grade 5
The vehicle may have defects as in Grade 1, 2, 3 & 4 it could also include:
• More than 2 panels / bumpers with significant cracks or damage i.e. over 30% of the panel
• 8 or more panels / bumpers affected with dents larger than 30mm
• 11 panels or more with paint defects larger than 25mm or 100mm on a bumper
• Up to 1 structural panel with significant damage i.e. over 30% of the panel
• Significant tears, holes or cuts in convertible roofs

There is also Motorway, Carwow, etc who offer a car buying service.

Thanks for the info.

I wont be going to a car buying service though. In my eyes that's willingly allowing someone to have your pants down & that's not the thing I go for.

I'm in 2 minds - to get the glowplug sorted & sell or to sell as is.

I'd actually have a bash at the glowplug myself & keep costs down. At the end of the day it's only undoing something.

Problem is, the horror stories put me right off. I'm aware of getting the engine to temp & the applying Plusgas in the days leading up to the day you're going to do the job as well as cautiously undoing them even with those two things having been done. When anyone seems to mention glowplugs though, it all seems to be put across more that you're likely to snap them rather than it being a - you might but you probably wont.

Which means I'd have to get a mechanic to do it and who knows what they'll charge for part + doing.

paul_c123

Which engine is it? Some diesels have terrible access to the glowplugs and may need either the inlet manifold removing (Volvo VEA, RR Evoque for example) or the engine mount to be removed then the engine tilted forwards (Ford Fiesta Mk6, and probably those it shares the engine with - small Citroen/Peugeots of the era). Some are alright though.

You're right to be cautious about them snapping though.

WellKnownSid

B0bbyEwing said:

Car_54 said:

If the driver isn’t insured to drive your car, you will be guilty of “causing or permitting”. Six points, fine plus surcharge and costs, and much higher insurance premiums for the next few years. Don’t even think about it.

You must check that he’s insured. If his certificate covers “driving other cars”, be aware that it is almost certainly third-party only, so it may be legal but your car is at risk.

Safest course is to drive yourself.

Another thing I'm cautious over, is matey boy from Birmingham, Burnley, Nelson, Blackburn, Bradford etc. coming with his dad, his cousin, his cousins cousin & their 2 brothers. 

Relative of mine actually had something pretty much like that. I think it was for a Honda Civic Type R at the time. Chappy from Birmingham (he'd have had to have driven a few hours north) was interested & sorted out a time & date with my relative. When he turns up, my relative is like - what's this, a family outing? Thankfully he didn't get turned over but it was a lot of them & 1 of him & could've easily gone wrong.

Unless they are coming from around the corner by bike or on foot, literally nobody turns up to view a car on their own as it's impossible for one person to drive two cars home at the same time.

Then comes the formula of how many people do you need to bring with you?

Clearly the person selling the car is a scammer trying to hide serious faults so if you are not comfortable around cars, you need to bring a qualified mechanic.  The more people - the less the collective mechanical knowledge of the group.  It's a safety in numbers thing.

If it's a 'first motor' - which a lot of that end of the market are - then you also need to add on a 40% 'interest factor' - brother or sister and their partner coming along because 'Dave' or 'Sally' is getting their first car.  Extra bonus points if one of the partners once changed a tyre - they must be a mechanical genius!

In my experience, traders tend to come in pairs and both will be all over the car the second they show up, and will argue over everything - I once had a guy who wanted to chip another £20 off because "it was such a long drive back"??.  This was the same guy that managed to get the car a fresh advisory-free MoT on the car (which needed a significant amount of welding due to the three inch hole right next to the strut mount) whilst it was driving back to Glasgow...

B0bbyEwing

I don't expect someone to come on their own. They're not a magician. But a load of folk? 

Funnily relative sold a car this week & a load of folk turned up. These were old boy farmer types too. 

Funny you mentioned Glasgow. I once sold a set of alloys with tyres for something like £60-£70. Might've even been £50 but around that area. Tyres in decent condition too. I don't take the wee-wee, I just wanted it gone & priced to achieve that.

Guy contacted me & wanted them basically at half price. 

I said you're having a laugh aren't you? You're essentially asking me to give them away which I'm pretty much already doing. 

His reply - but I'm coming from Glasgow. It's a long drive. 

I just told him look pal that's not my problem. I'm not forcing you to buy these so if the travel is too much then go get your cheap wheels elsewhere, it doesn't bother me. 

Him - do you want to sell them or not? 

Me - good luck & goodbye. 

Myci85

I've just recently bought and sold privately, plus various cars in the past. I wouldn't buy a car without being able to test drive it myself. And I've always allowed people to test drive cars I'm selling without question... might be different if I was selling a high end car, but when they're around £1k of car I just go off trust. Guess if you're worried you could put a tracker in the car. I've never once been asked for proof of driving licence or insurance, though did question if I should ask for that myself last time (I didn't).

In terms of description, you have to be honest, but probably not necessary listing every single thing to the detriment of a sale. The car I last sold did have some issues, but tbh it was a 22 year old car at £600, so anyone buying it should have expected issues. I described honestly that it had always started and driven well, and noted what work had been done since MOT. One person asked if any known faults, so I was honest that the steering sometimes made weird noises.

In your shoes I'd mention it needs some tlc and that it is priced to reflect that, and maybe hope someone will buy it that has enough mechanical know how to do the work themselves. 

Goudy

When you advertise the car, just stick to the basics.
Make, Model, Trim, Year, MOT and perhaps service history.

But yes, list it with any obvious faults.
By this I mean dents, scratches, rust, rips in seats, engine management light on, parts obviously not working like A/C and missing or broken trim.

For everything else, take 6 to 8 good quality images. Check out professional car adverts for what is expected photo wise.

When it comes to viewing break it down into sections.

Greet them.
A few polite questions like how far have you come, who is the car for (get their name and use it often), do they know the model of car.
I'm not talking about the Spanish inquisition, but a few well placed and timed questions should give you an indication of their intent.

Have someone else at hand that you can call upon quickly in the back ground.

Show them the car, but don't over egg it.
Give them time to go over the car (without the keys) while you hang back and await any questions.
Let them form an opinion themselves rather than laying on the sales patter.
They'll want to see it start and run, but wait for the test drive for that.

Test drives are always tricky due to insurance.
At best they will be only insured third party, so take one of them out with you while you drive somewhere like a car park or industrial estate.
If you can plan a route with mixed roads, town and a bit of dual carriageway.

They will obviously insist on a drive, so around the car park or industrial estate only.
If they are genuine, they will understand, otherwise it's a firm no on the open roads.
They've seen it drives, all they need to find out if it stops, pulls to one side or the clutch is fried.

Negotiations.
They might not bite, but thank them for coming anyway, you never know they might be back.
If they bite and start to negotiate, keep the atmosphere pleasant but stick to what you will realistically take for it. 
Don't laugh or scoff at a lowish offer, thank them for it but explain it's not enough and where they might need to go to buy it.
You will no doubt need to move on price yourself, so be prepared for that.
If it's a stupidly low offer, just politely refuse it but make it clear you are prepared to negotiate on the listed price.

Everyone is different, but I wouldn't be inclined to quibble over £50 or so. If it's a near offer to what I want for it, I would shake their hand.

Handover.
Now your "someone else" comes into their own.
Get them to count any cash and make sure you have gone through what is required with the paperwork with them before hand. It's easy to overlook things yourself after a negotiation, you tend to experience all sorts of different emotions, so better to have another pair of eyes on it.


There are plenty or do's and don'ts, I guess they don't all need repeating but just keep your wits about you.
Generally if it sounds iffy, it generally is iffy.