LPA

jsh99

Hi all,

I have LPA for my brother who is currently in a nursing home self funding.

I can act straight away.

He inherited our mothers house - it is currently empty costing him upkeep as well as paying for his care.  His savings are running out.  He says he wants to go home but keeps making excuses about why he can't go 'just yet'.

He was deemed as having capacity when the LPA was created - about a year ago now.

I have made contact with the local council - for when the money runs out.

Do I have authority without his consent to sell the house to pay for his care - because it's in his best interest?  Or will the local council make that decision and force a sale?

Thanks.

p00hsticks

If his savings are running out then you (and him if he has capacity) need to bear in mind that he might need support (carers, cleaners, gardeners  etc) if and when he moved back home  and how we would go about funding that when his savings are depleted. 

Also that he may not be able to remain in the same nursling home when he is no longer able to self-fund. 

I'd suggest talking to Adult Social services local to him and the nursing home to find out what options are realistically available to him.   

Is he / you aware that he may be exempt from paying council tax for a period after moving into a care home ?

jsh99

p00hsticks said:

If his savings are running out then you (and him if he has capacity) need to bear in mind that he might need support (carers, cleaners, gardeners  etc) if and when he moved back home  and how we would go about funding that when his savings are depleted. 

Also that he may not be able to remain in the same nursling home when he is no longer able to self-fund. 

I'd suggest talking to Adult Social services local to him and the nursing home to find out what options are realistically available to him.   

Is he / you aware that he may be exempt from paying council tax for a period after moving into a care home ?

Yes was sorting all this out for mother whilst she was still alive in the house being bed bound but refusing to move to care.  He has gov pension and a small private pension - I know council will take some for care if he goes home once his savings is below a certain value.

Yes I have explained that to him - but house sale should give him a good few years there before this is an issue.

I have already contacted them.  Pending them to get back to me so looking for my options before that so that I am pre armed with relevant information.

We already had a year from mothers death - he was already in the care home when she died.  (it was also his home before hospital and subsequent discharge to the nursing home)

Thanks.

dnpark38

Think you have done right thing by getting social services involved.
(For my wife they arranged a care home to take her for 4 weeks for assessments for the future and plus a further 1 or 2 weeks for reports. this at councils expense to a private care home the council would find.)

I hold 2 LPAs, one for finance the other health. (So I was involved in decision making.)

elsien

Does he have capacity around where he lives and around his care and Support?
If not, is there a DoLS in place? 

Capacity of time and decision specific so he may have capacity for some things but not others. 

Given that he says he wants to go home but appears to making excuses my feeling is that it would be premature to sell the property at the moment until all those issues have been fully explored.
If he doesn’t have capacity around where he lives or his care and but wants to go home he has the right to challenge through the court of protection regardless of what LPAs might be in place. On that basis I would second the locality get to get involved and looking at what his options are in reality. Has he had a care assessment at all - that should happen whether he’s self-funding or not, and could help to explore why his verbal views and his actions may be slightly different. 

jsh99

elsien said:

Does he have capacity around where he lives and around his care and Support?
If not, is there a DoLS in place? 

Capacity of time and decision specific so he may have capacity for some things but not others. 

Given that he says he wants to go home but appears to making excuses my feeling is that it would be premature to sell the property at the moment until all those issues have been fully explored.
If he doesn’t have capacity around where he lives or his care and but wants to go home he has the right to challenge through the court of protection regardless of what LPAs might be in place. On that basis I would second the locality get to get involved and looking at what his options are in reality. Has he had a care assessment at all - that should happen whether he’s self-funding or not, and could help to explore why his verbal views and his actions may be slightly different. 

I have no idea if he has capacity - I did ask the doctors to asses him - but I've heard nothing.

But if his savings run out he can't pay for his care anymore - surely someone will have to give the go ahead to sell the house - the LA are not going to pay if he has a property sat empty depreciating and costing money for upkeep.  Perhaps they will take the decision and sell it - assume they will do the right thing and get bbest money for it rather than just getting shot.

Challenge through the court?  He can't be bothered to do anything!  He didn't even get up for his mothers funeral despite me making all the arrangements so he could go.

LA are supposed to be arranging an assessment - I know they have spoken to someone at the nursing home about his needs.

elsien

You need to get a definitive answer about his capacity to manage his finances, and around where he lives because if he has capacity, you cannot use the power of attorney  to sell his house without his consent. a general GP “ he has capacity or he doesn’t” is meaningless. This is where a social worker would normally step in and complete capacity assessments if there were any queries. 

The local authority are not going to sell the house. That is way outside their remit. What they would do is to make a deferred payment agreement until it is sold at the point he becomes local authority funded. 

I’m not saying it shouldn’t be sold at all, I’m just saying that making sure he wants to stay where he is and all the options around that have been properly explored before making that decision
Has your brother been assessed for depression at all - not unusual in older folk in care homes following big life changes, and it might explain some of his “can’t be bothered” unless that is just him anyway. 
If he is self-funding, he should also be claiming attendance allowance if that is not already happening. 

jsh99

elsien said:

You need to get a definitive answer about his capacity to manage his finances, and around where he lives because if he has capacity, you cannot use the power of attorney  to sell his house without his consent. a general GP “ he has capacity or he doesn’t” is meaningless. This is where a social worker would normally step in and complete capacity assessments if there were any queries. 

The local authority are not going to sell the house. That is way outside their remit. What they would do is to make a deferred payment agreement until it is sold at the point he becomes local authority funded. 

I’m not saying it shouldn’t be sold at all, I’m just saying that making sure he wants to stay where he is and all the options around that have been properly explored before making that decision
Has your brother been assessed for depression at all - not unusual in older folk in care homes following big life changes, and it might explain some of his “can’t be bothered” unless that is just him anyway. 
If he is self-funding, he should also be claiming attendance allowance if that is not already happening. 

Right - will see what the LA have to say once they get bac to me.  The trouble with not selling it is that I am the one who's ending up sorting everyting - insurance, gardener, council tax etc etc while it's empty.  

He is on antidepressants - has been since he went into hospital.  He's always been a bit reserved and a bit laid back - never claimed his gov pension - I had to do it for him - ten years he'd not been claiming!  But he's got a lot worse now.  I try to talk to him and he just shuts down and won't talk - I suspect he will do the same with the LA rep.

I'll just wait and see what the LA come bac with, when they eventually get to him.

Keep_pedalling

If he is to stay in care permanently and there is a property to sell but the savings have run out the LA will apply deferred payment. They will fund the care but that will need to be replayed once the house is sold. 

jsh99

Keep_pedalling said:

If he is to stay in care permanently and there is a property to sell but the savings have run out the LA will apply deferred payment. They will fund the care but that will need to be replayed once the house is sold. 

I see - but in the mean time the house is a big drain on his finances, and I am the one sorting out looking after it.  Surely an empty house that is deteriorating and possibly depreciating is not in his best interests.

If we did this how does it stand with IHT?  Do the arrangements for deferred payment come off the value of his estate before IHT is payable?  Would seem crazy if this is not the case.

I am starting to think about giving up the LPA and handing over to the LA.

elsien

Just for the sake of clarity, and I do fully appreciate how difficult it is for you, you can only act in someone’s best interests if they lack capacity. It seems to me that this has not yet been ascertained.
You might find the contacting the local authority and telling them you are considering giving up the LPA due to the lack of clarity might prompt them to come out and do any relevant assessments sooner rather than later.

What is his response when you tell him that if he wants to go home, it needs to be looked into quickly before his money runs out? And going back to the question of the DoLS,  specifically ask the care home if they have applied for one because if they have that would indicate they have queries around his capacity themselves.