RTS meter - can we carry on using this meter?

arielsmelody

My mum has Economy 7 electric heating. She hasn't had a letter telling her that her RTS meter was going to be turned off, and since she has a digital meter I thought it wasn't affected and the RTS box was disconnected. The display on the meter cycles between day, night, total. A couple of months ago the night time reading stopped updating, although the day reading and total are still increasing. Does this mean that the meter was using the RTS signal which has now been switched off? Does this mean that the night time electricity is not being recorded at all, or is all the usage day and night being recorded at the day time rate? As a temporary measure so that we don't have to replace the meter in the middle of winter, do you think the electricity company would let us switch to a single rate tariff and carry on with the old meter? Do I have to notify them that the meter is not working properly? The heaters have always had power to them day and night, and they still do. Thank you for any advice!

Netexporter

The meter is controlled by the teleswitch, which is the black box on the right. Yes, you need to get the meter changed for a smart meter to restore E7.

Keep_pedalling

What sort of heaters does she have? These sound like standard panel heaters not storage heaters and if that is the case E7 is not the best option.

Rodders53

A suitable smart meter:  One that is 5 terminal and has the contactor inside to switch the (2nd Consumer Unit) load(s) supplied via the RTS switching contactor... i.e. storage heaters and water heaters on E7 or similar tariffs.

How do UK Smart Meters work and who runs them?

This needs doing sooner rather than later as the RTS signalling / switching is still working but it cannot keep going very much longer.
What is Radio Teleswitch (RTS) and why must it be replaced?
The main LW transmitter at Droitwich is end-of-life;  although the two Scottish sites (Wetserglen and Burghead) might be able to keep going for a bit longer.

IF the night register is not updating it suggests the meter has a fault... and is either registering night consumption at the day rate or not registering that use at all (which may result in an estimated back bill when discovered)... Report the fault and request an upgrade to Smart meter asap.

doodling

Hi,

It is likely you are being charged the day rate for all electricity used.

What tariff are you on - is it definitely E7?

Does the property have storage heaters which need charging up overnight - if it does then you need to get this fixed quickly or you will get a disturbingly expensive bill at some point.

The fix for this is a smart meter - if you are on an E7 tariff and want to retain it then you need what is commonly known as a "5 terminal meter" - make sure that that is what they are coming to install.

There is no sensible reason to wait until after winter (and lots of reasons to get things sorted now) - phone today and get an appointment booked for a new meter.

Scot_39

The little grey wire from rts to digital meter was telling the meter to select night rate.

The three wires I can see on rts as cannot see the full unit - are I suspect input device power only - live and neutral and meter rate control output.  But there is a red flag for an 80A contactor just visible - but is it still in use / input and output wired ?

The meter itself is essentially a very simple direct replacement for an old two rate analogue meter - it does no intelligent control or time anything itself - unlike later digital and smart meters.

So yes it needs urgently upgrading if using a lot of night rate electric.

And will simply be recording all use on main day register.

The meter itself is only 4 port, and cannot see the full rts or cu to comment on the 4 port or 5 port replacement question.  Any chance pictures of tge wider rts meter cabinet wiring and cu with flaps open ?
But not 100% convinced its a restricted circuit home as cannot see a live meter tail in from meter live henley to rts to drive contactor or an output from it  - bottom left in bottom mid to  right out  respectively on some other models to drive a high amp output..

If the heater feeds are all live 24/7, so with own timers iinc hw tank immersion and of course charge time timers if nsh, the home might not have any restricted circuit wiring to need a 5 port setup.

Are they proper night storage heaters or standard radiators / fischer style faux storage / panel heaters 

For those not familiar, SP had many non standard home setups for electrical heating - so can you tell us what deal she is / was on. See link for a list.   The replacement for some rts isnt vanilla e7 as most used to south of the border.  E7 doesn't cut it in many homes setups in a Scottish winter for NSH type heating and thry have offered others things like smart comfort tariff replacements with very bespoke smart setups most homes wouldnt need or in one poster here's case  necessarily want for future flexibility..

https://www.scottishpower.co.uk/energy-efficiency/energy-efficiency-toolkit/electric-heating

So find a bill and what tariff she is on.  Ideally find one prior to June as many suppliers cut old schemes old tariffs off as of July 1st too.

Id issue a complaint to the supplier if absolutely sure they haven't contacted her about having a rts setup and demand compensation if day night rates different..

But id maybe check first.  As she may also have been swayed to ignore lots of media coverage, warning on bills etc not seperate letters etc including the tv ads by your error as well.

And yes any meter failure once spotted is immediately reportable to suplliers.

I really wouldn't wait until winter.  A meter replacement takes about 1 hr on the day - but you might wait weeks for an appointment.  A failed rts might get higher priority - especially so if SP genuinely at fault for not spotting it.

Can you dig out bills and also look at her past day and night rate usage.  And the unit rates.

On a typical e7 deal at one of big 6 in south - it needs around say 35% of total at night rate to make e7 cheaper than single rate. 
However many Scottish power deals were priced differently- some the heating rate a lot higher than many southern suplliers e7 night rate.
And their standard whitemeter e7 alternative gave 8.5 hrs off peak not e7 7, so it too likely a higher rate for longer hours.

arielsmelody

Thank you everyone for advice.

The tariff isn't called Economy 7 but it is a day/night tariff. The house was converted from storage heaters to panel heaters - we were going to change to a single tariff, but then electricity prices went mad and the heaters are mainly used overnight, so the moment passed and it never got changed. I'm worried about changing the actual meter in January just because if it gets messed up the house won't have any heating at all until it's fixed.

doodling

Hi,

Scot_39 said:

[...]

But not 100% convinced its a restricted circuit home as cannot see a live meter tail in from meter to rts - bottom left on some schlumberger models to drive a high amp output..

If the heater feeds are all live 24/7, so with own timers iinc hw tank immersion and of course charge time timers if nsh, the home might not have any restricted circuit wiring to need a 5 port setup. Ard they proper night storage heaters or standard radiators / fischer style faux storage / panel heaters 

[...]

Good point - looking again it does seem likely that there isn’t a separate off peak feed and only a 4 terminal meter would be required if that is the case although it would be good to see the whole supply arrangement as it might have been converted from a 5 terminal in the past and restoring it to 5 terminal might be a good idea.

If it is currently a 4 terminal.arrangement (and we can't be absolutely certain without seeing all the supply arrangements) then the other possibility is that the metering is working fine and it is the timers being used to switch things on/off overnight that are somehow non-functional / incorrectly set.

A new meter is definitely a good idea but without knowing more, it might not be the full solution.

Scot_39

The op said tge second register is no longer accumulating energy readings - just in  recent months - but had been - so chances are its not being told to.

Hasn't complained about heaters and hot water not behaving normally.

The meter is a 5235D-N - it needs the input rate selector pulled to neutral (the -N, there are also -L versions for pull to live iirc at least of tge older 5225d was it ampy iirc posts hwre in past) by external timer  device - whether mechanical clock - which we have seen driving this vintage of ampy / l+g meter tech in past here - or in this case rts.

Scot_39

arielsmelody said:

Thank you everyone for advice.

The tariff isn't called Economy 7 but it is a day/night tariff. The house was converted from storage heaters to panel heaters - we were going to change to a single tariff, but then electricity prices went mad and the heaters are mainly used overnight, so the moment passed and it never got changed. I'm worried about changing the actual meter in January just because if it gets messed up the house won't have any heating at all until it's fixed.

As above the sp list is regional and varied - whitemeter 1 as now calling it being the closest to standard e7 - but longer hours for harsher winters - and they do do standard e7.  So be careful what you want when discuss meter upgrades - and do the maths on use and costs of current and any future multirate vs single rate deals offered.

If everything is wired 24/7  live, the meter fitter will simply disconnect the 4 meter tails from old, reconnect to new and set it up along with an in home display and remove  the rts module.  Very little risk.  They will not leave without live power feed working.

Rts restricted feeds and more complex setups with dedicated heat wiring are more complex, but SP have done on3 special meter variant for those  better than another supplier based on admittedly just a couple of posts here.


Converted from nsh - why (cost of panels vs storage, controllability, marketing a la Fischer Future Heat scandal ) if you dont mind saying ?

Many out work say most days have clear issues with old storage heaters, less so with modern lot 20 / hhr at a cost premium admittedly - but the lot 20 aren't too much more expensive than many fancy radiator panels.

Why if standard panel heaters are they mainly being used overnight ?

Just the low rate on tariff  ?

Many would instinctively cut them off overnight or if programnable run at a lower temperature in empty rooms / spaces overnight.

Does the house stay warm enough during the day into evening / night  - maybe with minimal top up?

Do you have a full year of multirate meter readings with new heaters? What was the % off peak as share total and so average unit cost ?

As above - look at 

Off peak units x off peak rate + peak day units × peak rates 
Vs
Total units x single rates


And if your mother is running out of heat during the day -usinb a lot of day rate on heating ax well -  then once smart - their are smart tariffs that trade off peak periods say 4-7pm - with cheaper than standard single rate and many e7 day rates to look at in future like Octopus Cosy.

For both current or new multirate offerings.  (They might not support all the old tariffs listed above link on smart meters)

arielsmelody

Thanks for replies. I'm not sure if I'm more confused now or not! We had the house rewired and new panel heaters put in because originally it had old-fashioned storage heaters controlled from an obscure and obsolete Manweb control unit. The panel heaters are all independent and have their own internal programmable timers and thermostats, which are powered 24/7. We went to panel heaters because we wanted more control and the old storage heaters had been such a bad experience. Since the meter was still recording readings day and night and everything worked I  didn't think to ask more questions at the time! It's quite a rural area so the range of tariffs offered is limited - I need to pull out past bills to do the sums. When we get a new meter, do I need to specify that I might want an Economy 7 - type tariff or will any smart meter work?