persistent low frequent noise - possible neighbourly dispute

Leo2023

Hello Forumites,

Since the summer I have very persistent low frequent noise in my leasehold flat in central London, which I hear almost all my waking hours. I have reason to believe that it comes from the bass of a stereo system in the flat above mine. I did some research, got advice from a legal helpline, and am under the impression that I would have to document the frequencies, level and direction of the noise in my flat as one of the steps to stop the noise. 

I would be grateful for any advice on 

i) how to document the noise and it’s direction, e.g. which equipment to buy and what recordings to make, including with a view on legal proceedings or a complaint to the council; 

also for 

ii) any information on thresholds of number of hours in a day, days in a month etc and frequencies or decibel levels that would be seen as acceptable vs not acceptable by the council or in court. 

iii) whether the local council would be able to advise on the above and/or whether they would only rely on their own equipment/measurements.

Ideally, please add sources, such as tribunal or council websites.

In parallel, I will explore with the freeholder which support they would be able to provide. (I have spoken to the upstairs neighbour, with limited success.) 

Many thanks,

Leo

MeteredOut

AI would be a good place to start your research here. Don't automatically trust what it outputs, but use the source of those outputs for your research.

An excerpt from ChatGPT when I pasted in your exact post:

If you want sound-level data yourself:

• A Class 2 integrating sound level meter (meeting IEC/BS standards) is usually considered the minimum for environmental noise work outside occupational settings.SVANTEK - Sound and Vibration

• Some advanced recorders combine audio with logged decibel level graphs over days/weeks (e.g., commercial “noise nuisance recorders” used by councils and acousticians).NoiseMeters

How deep are your pockets? The devices in the second link are £6K

But, they also have a rental service.

ButterCheese

Ask your council first, if you record dates times and frequency that might be enough for them to send a letter out.  You could make recordings but if it's bass you don't stand much chance of getting a good recording, or if you do it will simply be inaudible to whoever is listening on a crappy set of PC/laptop speakers.

Have you also contacted the neighbour?  Might be worth doing.  I'd fully expect denial or lack of action but you never know, they might say "oh sorry I will turn it down/off".  Then if nothing changes you can go to the council.  It might well be a very long dran out fight, but I have heard of councils coming around to manually listen to the noise and/or using their own equipment.  But it really is a lottery as to how well this is handled

Ditzy_Mitzy

Leftfield alternative: what you've described could, potentially, be a case of tinnitus (true or pulsatile), rather than intrusive noise from an external source.  I experienced pulsatile tinnitus a couple of years ago and initially assumed it to be aircraft noise - it wasn't.  The reason I thought that was because I only experienced the tinnitus sound - a sort of low-frequency whooshing - when at home, alone, in the evening.  Being out and about provided sufficient exposure to background noise to mask the tinnitus - even something like Radio 4 being on at a low level was sufficient to hide it.  

The way to test the matter is to find a known quiet area away from the flat, such as a library or church or similar, and spend some time there doing nothing.  If, after a while, you start to hear the noise, you'll know it's in your head rather than in the flat.  

Pulsatile tinnitus is caused by a pressure imbalance in the head and can be treated with over-the-counter antihistamines; sounds bonkers but works by altering sinus pressure by virtue of drying mucous membranes.  Proper tinnitus is a mental issue and requires medical support.  

Catonthemoon

Why do you have reason to believe it’s the bass from a stereo system…surely you would hear the accompanying music?

I doubt you’d get very far with your local council - they don’t tend to have many Environmental Health Officers & they would only investigate ‘serious’ noise complaints ( ie neighbours blaring out music at 3am).

I don’t know the exact nature of what’s going on & how it impacts on you, but, generally, if you live in a block of flats ( surrounded by several neighbours), you have to accept/get used to the fact that there will noise by people just doing ‘normal things’ in their flats!

You say “since the summer “… there could be a number of innocent causes of it; for example, they could running a fan, a dehumidifier or such things.

I wouldn’t bother buying any fancy equipment to monitor decibels or keep logs etc (which councils often suggest); it’s a hell of a faff & unlikely to get the desired outcome.

MyRealNameToo

Leo2023 said:

Hello Forumites,

Since the summer I have very persistent low frequent noise in my leasehold flat in central London, which I hear almost all my waking hours. I have reason to believe that it comes from the bass of a stereo system in the flat above mine. I did some research, got advice from a legal helpline, and am under the impression that I would have to document the frequencies, level and direction of the noise in my flat as one of the steps to stop the noise. 

I would be grateful for any advice on 

i) how to document the noise and it’s direction, e.g. which equipment to buy and what recordings to make, including with a view on legal proceedings or a complaint to the council; 

also for 

ii) any information on thresholds of number of hours in a day, days in a month etc and frequencies or decibel levels that would be seen as acceptable vs not acceptable by the council or in court. 

iii) whether the local council would be able to advise on the above and/or whether they would only rely on their own equipment/measurements.

Ideally, please add sources, such as tribunal or council websites.

In parallel, I will explore with the freeholder which support they would be able to provide. (I have spoken to the upstairs neighbour, with limited success.) 

Many thanks,

Leo

Do you have a recording of the noise? 

It's not clear if "persistent" means continuous or if it's a thumping noise thats there all the time. A stereo wouldnt normally be playing a continuous tone, that sort of thing is more common from fans, impellers etc that are rotating consistently rather than the thuds of the notes of the bass line of music. 

Have you actually spoken to the neighbour? These things have a tendency of escalating quickly and becoming unreasonable when police or councils start getting involved. In a previous flat things got very nasty when someone accused another neighbour of noise pollution and the police were called and got the circa 85 year old resident out of bed. Guy was deaf as a post and had nothing sound emitting in his flat, turned out the sound was some maintenance equipment in the swimming pool that the flat was next to. Anyway, someone took to posting excrement through the complainers door etc (local rumours was it was the old guy's grandson) 

Herzlos

I'd go and get a hearing test first, because I think it's unlikely to be a bass speaker all the time purely because people aren't running speakers all the time. 

Maybe something like a fridge or an A/C unit? If it's transmitting through the structure then it could be coming from more or less anywhere. 

Is it louder in certain areas or seeming to come from a particular direction?

After that I'd go and talk to the neighbour when you're hearing the noise to see if they'll help you track it down or even do something to fix it like moving the bass onto a stand. Start in a friendly way like "Hey, I live underneath you and I hear this odd noise a lot, can you indulge me in trying to rule out where it's coming from". 

Jude57

Leo2023 said:

Hello Forumites,

Since the summer I have very persistent low frequent noise in my leasehold flat in central London, which I hear almost all my waking hours. I have reason to believe that it comes from the bass of a stereo system in the flat above mine. I did some research, got advice from a legal helpline, and am under the impression that I would have to document the frequencies, level and direction of the noise in my flat as one of the steps to stop the noise. 

I would be grateful for any advice on 

i) how to document the noise and it’s direction, e.g. which equipment to buy and what recordings to make, including with a view on legal proceedings or a complaint to the council; 

also for 

ii) any information on thresholds of number of hours in a day, days in a month etc and frequencies or decibel levels that would be seen as acceptable vs not acceptable by the council or in court. 

iii) whether the local council would be able to advise on the above and/or whether they would only rely on their own equipment/measurements.

Ideally, please add sources, such as tribunal or council websites.

In parallel, I will explore with the freeholder which support they would be able to provide. (I have spoken to the upstairs neighbour, with limited success.) 

Many thanks,

Leo

Apologies for the long post but I've recently had experience of dealing with neighbour noise, in my case it was far worse than what you describe but if it's affecting your life, I understand why you'd want it stopped. In my case, I was dealing with a Council tenant and the Council's Anti Social Behaviour team dealt with my complaint. While that doesn't seem to apply to your situation, I'd imagine that Environmental Health would have similar processes and hope my experience is helpful, if only to give an indication of what you'd need to be aware of.

I was asked to keep detailed diaries of instances of noise, noting the date, time, type of noise and the impact on me, so, for example, "12th December 2024, 0130 I was woken up by loud shouting, repeated slamming doors, screaming and thumping sounds from the flat below mine. Then loud music started, the shouting increased in volume and the noise continued until after 0500 preventing me from sleeping". That's a direct quote from one of my very many diary notes. I used to send them in every Monday morning and each one ran to several typed pages of similar events.

I was asked to record the noise using The Noise App but unfortunately, none of my tech would allow me to download it. You need a code from the Council to be able to use it because it's potential evidence. Being unable to use that App dragged my situation out because the Council has limited sets of recording equipment which is installed in your home and and it took months to be able to get that booked. After several months, during which my neighbour totally denied he was responsible for the noise, the Council issued him with a written warning that he could be subject to recording. That's a legal requirement apparently. The next week they installed recording equipment in my flat and demonstrated how to use it. Needless to say, there wasn't a peep from downstairs during the week I had the equipment. And, of course, a couple of weeks later, after the equipment was gone, the noise started again. So I continued with the diaries, sending them in week after week and seeking support from neighbours who were also now being affected. The officer dealing with my case was brilliant and by now had visited me and my neighbour several times so had a good insight into who was being truthful. Eventually, the recording equipment was reinstalled and as the noise continued during that week, I was hopeful it had recorded something. The equipment is sealed and tamper proof so that there can't be any suggestion that you have made the noise yourself to blame your neighbour maliciously. I was asked to note in my diary any time/date I pushed the 'record' button, so that the officer could find it easily on the digital recording. I was relieved to learn that the recordings totally supported my claims. In my case, the officer has suspicions that the tenant downstairs wasn't actually living in the flat and her suspicions turned out to be true; he was letting his friends use it as a party pad while he lived with his girlfriend. He was given the choice of surrendering the tenancy or possession proceedings would begin. To my delight, he surrendered the tenancy.

All that took just over 18 months so you need to be prepared for a long, wearying battle. And be aware that Environmental Health are not likely to consider low level noise as a Statutory Nuisance, more information here:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/noise-nuisances-how-councils-deal-with-complaints

I hope you can get something done and can enjoy your home again because it really is awful constantly being affected by neighbour noise. You begin to feel anxious, waiting for it to start and can't relax because you never know when it will begin. It becomes the only thing you focus on. It's a horrible feeling and I wish you well in getting some peace.

P.S. I'd like to be clear that I've lived here for 18 years and my previous downstairs neighbour was a very quiet person so I'm certainly not saying anything against Council tenants, especially as I'm one myself!

Chief_of_Staffy

Someone downstairs watching TV and upstairs a bloke listening to music. Sounds like a nightmare. The solution is to not live in a flat.

elsien

Parent was at her wits end with a low humming/vibration type sound coming from the neighbours as it clearly sounded as if it was coming through the party wall in her sitting room. Went on on and off for months. 

Until I went round their house on her behalf while it was happening  and there was no sound on their side at all.

Turned out to be her central heating (I think it was a dodgy TRV in an upstairs room) but due to how the sound was carrying you just couldn’t tell where it had originated. 

So my suggestion would be to get your heating checked out first. And talk to the other flat owner when it’s happening if you haven’t already done so. See if they will let you into theirs, and get them into yours to listen, if they will agree.

Nearly ruined parents relationship with next door for something that was nothing to do with them. 

kipsterno1

As elsien pointed out you really need to identify the source of the noise before you start doing anything. A friendly chat with the neighbours might be the starting point. I currently have a diverter valve on our heating system and the sync motor is on its way out, for such a small thing it makes quite a noise. That noise then travels due to the pipework it sits on.