Rent with no income but large savings - Renters rights laws ?

BlisteringBarnacles

WIAWSNB

Thanks a ton for posting on the property118 forum on my behalf. Very kind of you indeed ! truly appreciated. Several interesting replies. Nobody can say for sure. regarding some of the replies on that thread ... : 

"I believe that an insurance company would reject him so yes he has in effect been banned by the government." - LOL - thank you, HM Government :-)

"If the prospective tenant can prove their level of savings / investments along with a reasoned argument as to why they have no job i would be happy to have them as a tenant." - reasoned argument why I don't have a job - LOL again ! I will admit that it is a weird story. 

Where do I start without writing a (boring) novel ? Used to work in business IT dealing with software implementations for large businesses. Back in the day, software was technically interesting as you had to do a lot of the plumbing by hand. No easy plug and play frameworks back then. If you solved technical problems especially in production, you were a kind of hero. With the increasing commoditization and layering of software, a lot of the more interesting work went away to the US. I was in "professional services" and in the last couple of years, my job was reduced to mostly co-ordinating / liasing (glorified secretarial) job. I could have moved to product development roles in other companies in UK but I was getting paid well and wasn't sure as I had worked with this firm for decades. The longer you stay the harder it gets to jump ships. 

Couple of years ago my dear father (in India) got seriously ill and I couldn't handle the stress and took time off. After a few months the company could not grant me additional time off (sabbatical etc) even tho I had worked decades. I just quit one fine day. I had £ 2.x mill+ in SIPP, ISA etc and regretted not quitting sooner and spending more time with my dad. He passed away and I took a full year off. Was supposed to polish my CV and get back to work, but 1) it is hard to write a CV when you have been in one firm for decades and never had a CV 2) I moved from US office and never attended interviews here 3) LLMs (chatgpt etc) arrived on the scene in the meantime and I realized that it could do 90% of what I used to do and it was humbling 4) and The kind of jobs I might get (if at all) would be sitting in meetings and be a cog in the wheel of some large business as an "architect" etc. I have met these architects (since I used to be on the vendor side) and was impressed by very few people. But well paid for sure. 

I am also an inertia guy. Working for the same firm, never imagined I would leave one day. Now having left, I am not exactly bored. I run on inertia. But I am not doing anything creative either or contributing my skills to the world or to the UK economy. just being selfish I suppose. I read whatever I want to, maybe learn, maybe drift across topics on Tutorme (chatgpt), listen to talk radio etc. From a mental health standpoint working is probably better, as my sleep hygiene (3 AM to 11 AM) is terrible now. But the lure of corporate life (once you take the money out) is not there. 

But not all corporate work is uninteresting. I do appreciate that the superstars in Google Deepmind, Anthropic, Microsoft etc are doing world changing stuff but I dont have the talent to get in there, not at this age. I lack direction and motivation and I understand society frowns upon that - single man, no family, no job, no purpose, no motivation, no goals. 

I am not sure where in the world I want to be. I try to spend time with my mother in India - At the moment that is less than 180 days so I am not tax resident in India and the rest in UK. Not ready to leave the UK for good just yet. The countryside, clean roads, walkable footpaths, peace/quiet, secular atmosphere, libraries, green parks retain me here for the moment. But I realized I don't truly belong anywhere. Thought about Greece, Portugal, Cyprus etc but running on inertia ...life goes on. Any landlord will probably think this is all strange. 

Well it is what it is 

Oh, and Regarding mortgage for asset rich without a job - Found an interesting thread on reddit - coincidence that this post has just appeared in the last 24 hours.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UKPersonalFinance/comments/1ppundh/asset_rich_but_no_job_can_i_get_a_mortgage/

Chief_of_Staffy

I encountered this type of absurdity when I investigated moving into rented post-house sale, so I didn't have to link my purchase. Combined with the inflexibility of reference (ex-landlord - don't have one; employer - I'm freelance; accountant - I do my own) etc. and the nail in the renting coffin - a pet dog (horror of horrors, who'd have one in the house, etc.) then it was quickly clear it is literally impossible for me to rent a house. Of course, all the workarounds are now illegal, and it's for 'our own good'. Give it a few years and the younger generation will not believe that in some people's lifetime, renting was as simple as replying to an ad in the paper and moving in.

Herzlos

I wonder if you can count interest/share revenue as income? If you have the kind of money mentioned invested then you're probably drawing something comparible with a salary. 

I'd assume a lot of people would treat £100k/year in interest as safer than £100k/year in salary, because you can't be fired from it. 

That said, if you can justify buying something outright and still have enough 'income' to live it should be the safer long term option. You're not dependent on landlords or ongoing credit checks, you'll cut your outgoings drastically and if you need to move later you can sell and get most of the money back. 
You do lose a bit of flexibility but unless you're planning to move around a lot it's going to be the more prudent choice. 

WIAWSNB

BlisteringBarnacles said:

WIAWSNB
Thanks a ton for posting on the property118 forum on my behalf. Very kind of you indeed ! truly appreciated. Several interesting replies. Nobody can say for sure. regarding some of the replies on that thread ... : 
"I believe that an insurance company would reject him so yes he has in effect been banned by the government." - LOL - thank you, HM Government :-)
"If the prospective tenant can prove their level of savings / investments along with a reasoned argument as to why they have no job i would be happy to have them as a tenant." - reasoned argument why I don't have a job - LOL again ! I will admit that it is a weird story. 

Where do I start without writing a (boring) novel ? Used to work in business IT dealing with software implementations for large businesses. Back in the day, software was technically interesting as you had to do a lot of the plumbing by hand. No easy plug and play frameworks back then. If you solved technical problems especially in production, you were a kind of hero. With the increasing commoditization and layering of software, a lot of the more interesting work went away to the US. I was in "professional services" and in the last couple of years, my job was reduced to mostly co-ordinating / liasing (glorified secretarial) job. I could have moved to product development roles in other companies in UK but I was getting paid well and wasn't sure as I had worked with this firm for decades. The longer you stay the harder it gets to jump ships. 

Couple of years ago my dear father (in India) got seriously ill and I couldn't handle the stress and took time off. After a few months the company could not grant me additional time off (sabbatical etc) even tho I had worked decades. I just quit one fine day. I had £ 2.x mill+ in SIPP, ISA etc and regretted not quitting sooner and spending more time with my dad. He passed away and I took a full year off. Was supposed to polish my CV and get back to work, but 1) it is hard to write a CV when you have been in one firm for decades and never had a CV 2) I moved from US office and never attended interviews here 3) LLMs (chatgpt etc) arrived on the scene in the meantime and I realized that it could do 90% of what I used to do and it was humbling 4) and The kind of jobs I might get (if at all) would be sitting in meetings and be a cog in the wheel of some large business as an "architect" etc. I have met these architects (since I used to be on the vendor side) and was impressed by very few people. But well paid for sure. 

I am also an inertia guy. Working for the same firm, never imagined I would leave one day. Now having left, I am not exactly bored. I run on inertia. But I am not doing anything creative either or contributing my skills to the world or to the UK economy. just being selfish I suppose. I read whatever I want to, maybe learn, maybe drift across topics on Tutorme (chatgpt), listen to talk radio etc. From a mental health standpoint working is probably better, as my sleep hygiene (3 AM to 11 AM) is terrible now. But the lure of corporate life (once you take the money out) is not there. 

But not all corporate work is uninteresting. I do appreciate that the superstars in Google Deepmind, Anthropic, Microsoft etc are doing world changing stuff but I dont have the talent to get in there, not at this age. I lack direction and motivation and I understand society frowns upon that - single man, no family, no job, no purpose, no motivation, no goals. 

I am not sure where in the world I want to be. I try to spend time with my mother in India - At the moment that is less than 180 days so I am not tax resident in India and the rest in UK. Not ready to leave the UK for good just yet. The countryside, clean roads, walkable footpaths, peace/quiet, secular atmosphere, libraries, green parks retain me here for the moment. But I realized I don't truly belong anywhere. Thought about Greece, Portugal, Cyprus etc but running on inertia ...life goes on. Any landlord will probably think this is all strange. 

Well it is what it is 

Oh, and Regarding mortgage for asset rich without a job - Found an interesting thread on reddit - coincidence that this post has just appeared in the last 24 hours.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UKPersonalFinance/comments/1ppundh/asset_rich_but_no_job_can_i_get_a_mortgage/

You are welcome, and thank you for your story, and frankly blistering honesty. 

I suspect, very strongly, that armed with a positive reference from your current LL - no, don't bother to mention the source of your income to him! - you should have little problem finding a new place to rent. All a new LL will ultimately be concerned with is that they have a reliable and uncontentious tenant. If your ref confirms you haven't failed in either respect, you should be good to go. If one digs their heels in, then you are probably best off elsewhere in any case. 

Please don't discount the option of buying - the character properties you have shown us from one brief search are likely to be far superior to anything available to rent. It really isn't a hardship to buy :-) Just some due diligence...

You clearly acknowledge your very fortunate position, and many folk would be envious. Not me. 

Kidding! I'm drooling!

But, your honesty also comes across in also acknowledging the stage you are in your life, the pros and cons of your 'fortunate' position, the definite cons from not having that 'challenge' in your life. 

Apart from the large financial chasm, the contact with South Asia, the IT skills, and pretty much everything else, could I suggest we may have a few things in common? I am 'fortunate' in being retired from paid work and therefore free to indulge myself, within reason. I love DIY, and the house needs a thorough going-over. But, maaan, I can't be bovvered. I love reading, but have struggled to get into a good book recently. (Little Dribbling by Bryson is looking promising, tho'...)

What does bovver me? What makes me do 'stuff'? A challenge. Currently a 'legal' one for a relative - mind-blowing.

Even swapping a bulb holder for the widow of a good cove who recently passed away (thanks to help from this forum). 

You have skills which are a moral crime to waste. Perhaps a bit too harsh, but there are mutual benefits to be had here. You can do 'stuff' for local groups and organisations. Some can be voluntary and free, and more complex stuff paid-for. The latter will mean you are 'employed'. 

It's all good stuff, and will add to your already-fortunate life, I am certain. 

Please keep us updated on your next moves. Any property worth checking out for buying, put it on here as there are folk who can delve into this and give good advice. 

Best Chrimbo wishes. 

BlisteringBarnacles

Herzlos said:

I wonder if you can count interest/share revenue as income? If you have the kind of money mentioned invested then you're probably drawing something comparible with a salary. 

I'd assume a lot of people would treat £100k/year in interest as safer than £100k/year in salary, because you can't be fired from it. 

That said, if you can justify buying something outright and still have enough 'income' to live it should be the safer long term option. You're not dependent on landlords or ongoing credit checks, you'll cut your outgoings drastically and if you need to move later you can sell and get most of the money back. 
You do lose a bit of flexibility but unless you're planning to move around a lot it's going to be the more prudent choice. 

Thanks. Regarding interest / dividends as income : but quite a good chunk of it is Accumulation units in ISA and SIPP so the dividends / interest don't fall with a thud as Rockefeller would say I suppose I could convert to income units if required. In Taxable, I just looked at my 2023-2024 UK tax return - (I pay tax on worldwide income on arising basis). My bank interest was around £13,000 and stock dividends less than £7000. 

Still haven't done my 2024-2025 return yet (my deadline is Jan 31 - I cannot get anything done without the panic monster screaming at me LOL). But looking at my savings as of today in Taxable, I have around 300K cash so at 4% interest I should get around £12,000 and around 800,000 in World Equity tracker - the dividend yield on VWRD is only 1.2% so its around £9600, kind of matches my 2023-2024 numbers. So my "income" in Taxable would be max 20 grand no more. I really shouldn't be holding so much cash, so if I invest in index funds or low coupon gilts, the "income" in taxable will reduce even further. 

Regarding your 2nd point, my immediate future is uncertain. But it has been "uncertain" for about 20 years :-) 

BlisteringBarnacles

WIAWSNB said:

You are welcome, and thank you for your story, and frankly blistering honesty. 

I suspect, very strongly, that armed with a positive reference from your current LL - no, don't bother to mention the source of your income to him! - you should have little problem finding a new place to rent. All a new LL will ultimately be concerned with is that they have a reliable and uncontentious tenant. If your ref confirms you haven't failed in either respect, you should be good to go. If one digs their heels in, then you are probably best off elsewhere in any case. 

Please don't discount the option of buying - the character properties you have shown us from one brief search are likely to be far superior to anything available to rent. It really isn't a hardship to buy :-) Just some due diligence...

You clearly acknowledge your very fortunate position, and many folk would be envious. Not me. 

Kidding! I'm drooling!

But, your honesty also comes across in also acknowledging the stage you are in your life, the pros and cons of your 'fortunate' position, the definite cons from not having that 'challenge' in your life. 

Apart from the large financial chasm, the contact with South Asia, the IT skills, and pretty much everything else, could I suggest we may have a few things in common? I am 'fortunate' in being retired from paid work and therefore free to indulge myself, within reason. I love DIY, and the house needs a thorough going-over. But, maaan, I can't be bovvered. I love reading, but have struggled to get into a good book recently. (Little Dribbling by Bryson is looking promising, tho'...)

What does bovver me? What makes me do 'stuff'? A challenge. Currently a 'legal' one for a relative - mind-blowing.

Even swapping a bulb holder for the widow of a good cove who recently passed away (thanks to help from this forum). 

You have skills which are a moral crime to waste. Perhaps a bit too harsh, but there are mutual benefits to be had here. You can do 'stuff' for local groups and organisations. Some can be voluntary and free, and more complex stuff paid-for. The latter will mean you are 'employed'. 

It's all good stuff, and will add to your already-fortunate life, I am certain. 

Please keep us updated on your next moves. Any property worth checking out for buying, put it on here as there are folk who can delve into this and give good advice. 

Best Chrimbo wishes. 

Thank you so much for your kind words. Its not easy to find purpose and meaning. My father meant a lot to me, and after he has departed, I have very little motivation. I had three pillars : Making money so I could fund my dad's private medical expenses in India, reading up a lot on medical papers to discuss with his doctors regarding treatment and my job which gave me some sense of pseudo purpose (before LLM days). All three are gone now.  I don't have the fire (and talent) to come up with a product idea, develop the software and launch it. You need a burning desire to do all that. 

Looking back I wasn't particularly talented or gifted. I was lucky, in the right place at the right time. I passed one difficult STEM test when I was 17 to get into a top college in India and after that everything was handed to me on a platter. Such privilege. Elite government university. No fees. The tests were on memory and obedience, not critical thinking. Except one advanced maths course which was problem oriented which I did very well and was proud of it. But in general getting good grades meant you were obedient not necessarily intelligent. Easy scholarship to top University in USA. My American advisor was a top guy in data science (In those days it wasn't called data science). I didn't plan my career, dropped out of PhD and moved to run of the mill business I.T job out of FOMO. In the 90s, everyone was in I.T especially in the US. The web had just come out and it was wild. Silicon Valley was minting millionaires every week. I wish I had completed my PhD and got into a proper career such as Big Tech or academic. 

Anyway we can only look forward. I need self motivation and find something that uses my skill and where I get to learn something new. I could compromise on pay if it means I get to work on something exciting like AI etc. Maybe. Sadly I don't remember the old maths. Stumble upon a few math problems out of curiosity and it takes a very long time to figure it out. Use it or lose it. And gratitude is important. I am healthy and not poor. Enjoy the fresh air, the cool breeze and that cup of coffee. 

Your post is inspiring. Looks like you manage to find interesting challenges from time to time. 

This is not a career discussion forum, but its late night and feel like rambling a bit. 

Cheers ! Merry Christmas to you too ! And to all of you !

WIAWSNB

My recent 'challenges' happened to present themselves without my input, and without them I'm sure I'd have just plodded along, still not doing the day-to-day tasks that I ought to. 
The legal one was an eye-opener, an emotional rollercoaster (at one difficult stage I actually had a bit of a panic attack, and my heart was beating so hard and my hands shook so much I could barely type) and it still is as it isn't fully resolved. At one point we thought it was resolved, and I was shocked that one of my undeniable reactions was to feel deflated as it seemed over. That was as strong a sensation as the presumed 'win'. It actually shook me that I felt that way.
What you describe sounds 'similar', although on a much bigger scale. You were driven to meet some very demanding challenges, far more directly involving and emotional than a legal issue. It was clearly your main purpose, and must have filled your life for years. And you met these challenges, so absolute kudos for that.
And then it ended. Not just the challenges themselves, but their purpose. There is no comparison between our situations, but I think I can understand - feel - some element of how this dramatic change was for you. A giant roller coaster.
It is completely understandable. And (I hope!) normal. 
But that's all I can say! No idea how to suggest finding new challenges and purpose - perhaps one will land at your feet! But don't beat yourself up about it - enjoy the true pleasures that life is giving you, and keep one eye open for opportunities where you can do good, and share your good fortune. 
Even if you don't use your specific IT skills, you will still have a wider range of talents and abilities than the average bod, and there are lots of worthy groups and organisations out there who'd bite your hand off for a few hours help each week. Each one will provide it's own level and sense of purpose. And I suspect you'll find some impressive folk there too. 
Going back to the purpose of your thread, have you ever owned your home, or always rented? Do you know how the two compare?! Perhaps it wouldn't make much sentimental difference to you, but I suspect - by your reaction to the character properties - that it would! I am not suggesting you buy instead of renting, but perhaps give some thought to how the two 'feel'? Perhaps make appointments to view one or two of these gorgeous flats? How do you feel when you walk up to them, and look inside, and think of it as being 'yours'? 
If 'meh', then rent!

BlisteringBarnacles

WIAWSNB said:

My recent 'challenges' happened to present themselves without my input, and without them I'm sure I'd have just plodded along, still not doing the day-to-day tasks that I ought to. 
The legal one was an eye-opener, an emotional rollercoaster (at one difficult stage I actually had a bit of a panic attack, and my heart was beating so hard and my hands shook so much I could barely type) and it still is as it isn't fully resolved. At one point we thought it was resolved, and I was shocked that one of my undeniable reactions was to feel deflated as it seemed over. That was as strong a sensation as the presumed 'win'. It actually shook me that I felt that way.
What you describe sounds 'similar', although on a much bigger scale. You were driven to meet some very demanding challenges, far more directly involving and emotional than a legal issue. It was clearly your main purpose, and must have filled your life for years. And you met these challenges, so absolute kudos for that.
And then it ended. Not just the challenges themselves, but their purpose. There is no comparison between our situations, but I think I can understand - feel - some element of how this dramatic change was for you. A giant roller coaster.
It is completely understandable. And (I hope!) normal. 
But that's all I can say! No idea how to suggest finding new challenges and purpose - perhaps one will land at your feet! But don't beat yourself up about it - enjoy the true pleasures that life is giving you, and keep one eye open for opportunities where you can do good, and share your good fortune. 
Even if you don't use your specific IT skills, you will still have a wider range of talents and abilities than the average bod, and there are lots of worthy groups and organisations out there who'd bite your hand off for a few hours help each week. Each one will provide it's own level and sense of purpose. And I suspect you'll find some impressive folk there too. 
Going back to the purpose of your thread, have you ever owned your home, or always rented? Do you know how the two compare?! Perhaps it wouldn't make much sentimental difference to you, but I suspect - by your reaction to the character properties - that it would! I am not suggesting you buy instead of renting, but perhaps give some thought to how the two 'feel'? Perhaps make appointments to view one or two of these gorgeous flats? How do you feel when you walk up to them, and look inside, and think of it as being 'yours'? 
If 'meh', then rent!

Thanks again for your wonderful kind response. 

No, I have never gone thru a house purchasing process. My father did tho' (in India) and I helped fund part of it but I was not involved in the buying process. There are a few dodgy builders in India and my father did a great job of choosing a reliable builder / property. So, if it gets too expensive to live/rent here, then I have that home to go back to. Its a chaotic noisy neighborhood but at least I am in a fortunate position of not being globally homeless. 

In my US days I did not want to buy a house as I wanted to keep my career options open throughout the entire US. My move to UK was sudden : Expat assignment that kept getting extended for a few years. I still thought I may go back to US. But with parents developing health issues, I thought I might go back to India in the "next year or two". I had seen property prices crash in the US. With property, you obviously cannot dollar cost average like index funds LOL. They had apparently crashed in UK too in late 80s, although with a 5 year commitment, its probably a no-brainer to buy. I also thought property prices were overvalued in UK Southeast, especially since I had seen much larger living spaces in US. Took me about 2 decades to realize that if UK property prices start to tumble, the govt will do everything in their power to help prop up the market - as the entire UK economy depends banking / financial sector and hence on the housing market. 

Its also a mindset thing. I avoid owning large possessions. So, portable projector vs TV, high end headphone vs music system, etc. I like the "portability" of my lifestyle, so I can leave if/when I want to. But it is contradictory : My inertia ensures that I never "change state", yet I am always "ready" to do so - LOL !

In any case, coming back to renting, a funny but worrying response on property118 by one Mr.Michael Crofts : https://www.property118.com/rent-with-no-income-but-large-savings/comment-page-2/#comments : I quote : "In reply to the original post, no I would not accept this person as a tenant. In the last few years I have only accepted tenants who have a very strong motive to be good tenants. The strongest motive of all is that they are saving a deposit to buy a house and will need an unblemished record to get a mortgage. Your friend has no real motive to be a good tenant. What is the worst that could happen to him if he does not pay the rent or even if he damages the property? In practice the worst is loss of his deposit, that’s all. If his record is tarnished he can buy a house or flat for cash."

I must acknowledge it is a well made argument. Hard to counter that :-)

BlisteringBarnacles

Posts like these below make me think long and hard before making a purchase. But as a lifelong pessimist these are the points that come to my mind first

https://www.reddit.com/r/HousingUK/comments/1pqoczi/i_regret_my_new_house/

https://www.reddit.com/r/HousingUK/comments/1pql6ep/ftb_bought_a_mid_terrace_it_is_a_nightmare_due_to/

WIAWSNB

Wow! That Michael Crofts is a piece of work!
How staggering cynical can a person be.
Of course LL's must be concerned about their new tenant, just as tenants worry about the calibre of their LL. But still - wow. He has a 'point', it has some merit, but in the scheme of things it can surely barely register as an additional risk. I suspect it says more about him than anything else. And, should his 'self-made' tenant actually turn out to be as he suspects, he'll know he is worth chasing for any loss, as he does have the money!
Dearie me. 
You are absolutely right - if you were to buy instead of renting, but then find out it was a 'mistake' for whatever reason - bad neighbours, buyer's remorse, whatever - then to escape is going to be more prolonged and difficult than for a rental, possibly/probably coupled with a loss (certainly of the buying & selling expenses). 
But yet, the overwhelming number of folk would still choose this route! It's not just for the overall financial benefit, but for the security, and the feel. The latter isn't just an aspiration, but I suspect is pretty innate to the human psyche. I know it is for me - I still recall my first purchase, a top floor flat, and how it felt, how much it meant to me. I could do stuff to it, make it my own. I looked forward to coming home to it. 
You are clearly far more international, and your options are huge. And, you don't need the 'security'. Whereas for most of us, we try and narrow down a street, or area, or a town, or a county, you are pondering different continents.
Perhaps, then, the actual physical 'home' means that much less to you? 
As I suggested before, if you plan a viewing of one of these dreamy properties, and the thought of owning it as you look around it doesn't provide an additional tingle, then I guess it's 'rent'! The potential cons of buying could override the pros. 
But if you discover it matters, it feels different, it adds something important, then you know it can be done. 
And worse case scenario would be you need to sell and move sooner that you otherwise would, with all the hassle that would involve. But there is also the option of handing the keys to a decent rental agent, and still walking away - but knowing it remains yours. An investment.
I doubt you'll make a decision any time soon, but please do update us if you can
All the best.