Power chair Return issues…

AmbulentAmy

I purchased a powerchair from a large company. I’ve had this one since Mid August. I’ve gone back to them as the mileage it advertised was 15 miles and I’m only getting about 3-4miles before it flashes red. 

I’ve had to pay £80 for them to send an engineer out (apparently refunded if he finds a fault) however she said the batteries aren’t covered under warranty. Surely it still comes under my rights as “reasonable use” as the batteries shouldn’t have degraded within 3 months!  I tried to argue it was there responsibility to send an engineer to fix it or was it correct I should pay and get it back? 

YBR

Ignore the warranty, pursue this under consumer rights.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/consumer-rights-refunds-exchange/

"Remember your SAD FART return rights. Goods must be SAD FART, which (loosely) stands for Satisfactory quality, As Described, Fit for purpose, And lasting a Reasonable length of Time."

What you seem to be saying is that it was either never as described or the batteries have not lasted a reasonable length of time.?

AmbulentAmy

that’s correct but this was their response… 

“While the Consumer Rights Act 2015 does state that you have the right to a refund for goods that are faulty, not as described, or not fit for purpose, this is dependant on how long you have had a product or item.  As the item is outside of the 30 day period, we do have the right to repair the item if a manufacturing fault is present. 

 

We would however have to inspect the powerchair to confirm this, and due to no evidence being able to be provided of this, we do unfortunaltey pre-charge. If a manufacturing fault is however found, this fee will be refunded to you.“

She the alluded to the batteries not being a manufacturing fault and therefore may not be covered? 

Ergates

AmbulentAmy said:

I purchased a powerchair from a large company. I’ve had this one since Mid August. I’ve gone back to them as the mileage it advertised was 15 miles and I’m only getting about 3-4miles before it flashes red. 

I’ve had to pay £80 for them to send an engineer out (apparently refunded if he finds a fault) however she said the batteries aren’t covered under warranty. Surely it still comes under my rights as “reasonable use” as the batteries shouldn’t have degraded within 3 months!  I tried to argue it was there responsibility to send an engineer to fix it or was it correct I should pay and get it back? 

One thing that will affect batteries is temperature - when they get cold they'll *appear* to discharge very quickly.

Obviously that should have been taken into account in a battery powered chair sold in a country that gets quite cold during the winter.   But it's possible that it's not the batteries being degraded, just them not coping with the cold.   I don't know if there is anthing that can be done about that (little coats for the batteries? )

born_again

What type of batteries are they, how often charged.
How often do you use the chair?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

AmbulentAmy said:

that’s correct but this was their response… 

“While the Consumer Rights Act 2015 does state that you have the right to a refund for goods that are faulty, not as described, or not fit for purpose, this is dependant on how long you have had a product or item.  As the item is outside of the 30 day period, we do have the right to repair the item if a manufacturing fault is present. 

 

We would however have to inspect the powerchair to confirm this, and due to no evidence being able to be provided of this, we do unfortunaltey pre-charge. If a manufacturing fault is however found, this fee will be refunded to you.“

They are correct apart from the bit about charging you upfront:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/19

(14)For the purposes of subsections (3)(b) and (c) and (4), goods which do not conform to the contract at any time within the period of six months beginning with the day on which the goods were delivered to the consumer must be taken not to have conformed to it on that day.

They should send someone out for free and charge you if there is nothing wrong with it.

Should there be a problem in the future and it was more than 6 months since delivery then their stance is fine.

However it might be worth just paying the money as the £80 is presumably nothing compared to the the cost of the chair and it's easier to get £80 back later than fight them now for repairs or rejecting and getting a refund. 

The fact they've said they'll refund if a fault is found is positive, if they find no fault then you'd need to get someone else to look at it and see if their opinion differs, if that opinion does differ then you'd then go back to the company for a repair + the cost of your inspection + the cost of their call out fee.

If they still don't repair, you'd reject and if no refund send a letter before action followed by small claims, best to reject within 6 months as there will be no deduction for use (I assuming the chair doesn't meet the legal definition of a motor vehicle). 

Batteries may be a consumable item but should still last a reasonable time,  it's not like it's a pair of AA batteries, as you say you'd expect far more than 3 months use out of them, same with a new car, if the battery was knackered in 3 months I'd expect a new battery from the car dealer. 

saajan_12

AmbulentAmy said:

that’s correct but this was their response… 

“While the Consumer Rights Act 2015 does state that you have the right to a refund for goods that are faulty, not as described, or not fit for purpose, this is dependant on how long you have had a product or item.  - correct

As the item is outside of the 30 day period, we do have the right to repair the item if a manufacturing fault is present.  - correct

 

We would however have to inspect the powerchair to confirm this,  - correct

and due to no evidence being able to be provided of this, we do unfortunaltey pre-charge. - no. As its within 6 months, the onus is on them (ie their cost) to find the evidence. 

If a manufacturing fault is however found, this fee will be refunded to you.“ - no, the assumption is its on them unless they can show it was damage or something after the sale. 

She the alluded to the batteries not being a manufacturing fault and therefore may not be covered? - batteries are still manufactured by someone. They may not last as long as the chair, but should last reasonably long. 

Comments in line. At least they're reasonably aware of CRA, but they're wrong on the charging part. 

Okell

AmbulentAmy said:

that’s correct but this was their response… 

“While the Consumer Rights Act 2015 does state that you have the right to a refund for goods that are faulty, not as described, or not fit for purpose, this is dependant on how long you have had a product or item.  As the item is outside of the 30 day period, we do have the right to repair the item if a manufacturing fault is present. 

 

We would however have to inspect the powerchair to confirm this, and due to no evidence being able to be provided of this, we do unfortunaltey pre-charge. If a manufacturing fault is however found, this fee will be refunded to you.“

She the alluded to the batteries not being a manufacturing fault and therefore may not be covered? 

I notice that they conveniently haven't mentioned "not of satisfactory quality" which includes characteristics such as "durability".

If they are saying that there is a problem with the batteries* but the batteries are not under warranty, I'd go back to them and remind them that under s9 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 goods must be of satisfactory quality and that one of the aspects of the goods that can be used to determine how satisfactory they are is "durability".

If they are saying the batteries have degraded so badly* so quickly then you need to argue with the seller that the chair (or at least the batteries) are not of satisfactory quality.  Whether that's actually true or not I don't know, as I know nothing about power chairs or their batteries, but that is the position you need to take with them.

Three other points to note:

1.  They are right that after 30 days from delivery of the chair to you, they have the right either to repair or replace it (or its components) if a fault is found.  But they are only allowed a single attempt at either repair or replace.

2.  As you are within 6 months of delivery to you, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 creates a legal presumption that the goods were faulty at purchase, unless the seller proves otherwise.  I would say that you should not be paying any inspection fee at all as the burden of proof that the item is not faulty is on the seller.  See s19(14) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015

3.  Presumably you have "cared" for the batteries according to any instructions/user manual


*You've not actually said what the problem with the batteries is - just that you've been told not covered by warranty...

AmbulentAmy

Thank you all for your comments. They are sending an engineer out next week which I did agree to pay for but I’ll be pushing for my money back. The chair is only achieving 4 miles not 15 miles so they are presuming the batteries aren’t holding charge or discharging too quickly. Will see what they say after engineer looks at it 

Rodders53

We have a folding power chair that has a claimed "up to 13 mile" range... so from a different maker/supplier   That range is probably measured on a flat, super smooth surface indoors in the warm and in a straight line without stopping (no acceleration / braking involved to use more energy).

Ours came with two Lithium batteries, so when one 'expires' the other can be connected in its place to continue.  Each are 24 V 12 Ah.  We've never expected, or got, that sort of distance on a single battery! Nor have we ever had, or expected, the quoted range from our 'shopping' mobility scooter with 24 V 18-22 Ah lead acid batteries (15 miles). 

Not on real UK stop start pavement, parks, and in shop use!

In theory at least Lithium batteries will have an increasing range from new if one follows the makers instructions to fully discharge and fully charge the first N times of use (after an initial full charge).  We've not seen a noticeable difference - but every outing is not over identical routes.  Sealed lead acid batteries can be damaged by deep discharge or over-charging with a faulty charger.

A lot will depend on user weight along with the weight of the chair and much from the terrain encountered in any journey(s) and how much start/stop movement takes place.  As only the two rear wheels on ours are motorised and the front wheels castor, we find travelling along a camber (e.g. sloping drives across a pavement) means the driver has to fight gravity and the tendency for the chair to move down the slope towards the road - which uses more battery energy to correct.

How are you measuring the distance it will travel?