What kind of certification is sufficient for a conservatory improvement?

Ena123

Hello, 

I have had a conservatory improved, from the brick up: new windows, new doors and new warm roof. This was done with upvc windows and doors and the foam sandwich roof as a warm roof, i.e. improvement in insulation, at least. Previously there were wooden windows and doors (all double glazed before and after) and the roof was having some wooden beams with what I understand was insulated with just plaster boards under otherwise polycarbonate or something of this sort. It was quite cold in winter, now it is warmer there. Also the trickle vents in the new windows improve ventilation, making the property more attractive, i.e. adding value. 
The company that installed it all under one contract (windows and roof) claims the work doesn't fall under building control "due to this being a like for like building and already a solid roof in place." and that I don't need a 'final certificate of completion'. They want to just give me the certificate of compliance for the installation company (which is another story of its own), not the certificate that my actual installation meets certain criteria. And that could represent a problem for insurance, selling the house, etc. 
 
When consulting AI which proves to be right more often than not, it insists my home improvement definitely falls under building control, although no building planning was required, because the structure stood there already and nothing in its size or height was changed. The roof concept is a bit different though. 

The AI concludes: 

Replacing a glass or polycarbonate conservatory roof with a solid insulated warm roof is not like-for-like under Building Regs.
It changes:

• Structural load
• Fire safety
• U-values / insulation
• Ventilation
• Thermal performance
• Condensation risk

And because you changed windows/doors at the same time, that alone generally requires compliance with:

• Part L (energy efficiency)
• Part F (ventilation)
• Part A (structure)

👉 The work almost certainly DOES fall under building control.

So, who is right? Am I just messing about or are they trying to avoid paperwork I deserve? 

grumpy_codger

Don't know about Part A, but I think for energy efficiency and ventilation your AI is talking rubbish. If the concervatory remains a conservatory, not a living space, i.e. is separated by a proper external door, it doesn't have to meet any energy standards.
Personally, I wouldn't bother if the new roof is lightweight and specially designed for conservatories.

casper_gutman

The AI stuff takes as a starting point "Replacing a glass or polycarbonate conservatory roof with a solid insulated warm roof is not like-for-like under Building Regs." But that's not representative of what you've done. There was already a solid roof. I'm not sure whether that's relevant though. The issue identified by grumpy_codger above seems more important. If it's still a conservatory then it doesn't need to meet building regulations AFAIK.

TELLIT01

When the roof of our conservatory was replaced with a 'Warm Roof' we had visits from Building Control and certification on completion.  That was arranged by the people doing the work.  I can't imagine they would have gone to the trouble and expense if it wasn't required.  We didn't remove the doors between the main house and the conservatory.

WIAWSNB

TELLIT01 said:

When the roof of our conservatory was replaced with a 'Warm Roof' we had visits from Building Control and certification on completion.  That was arranged by the people doing the work.  I can't imagine they would have gone to the trouble and expense if it wasn't required.  We didn't remove the doors between the main house and the conservatory.

Blimey. Who told them?!

Why are they concerned about an outbuilding that isn't a habitable space? Could you legitimately remove the ext doors now if you wanted to? 

Ena123

grumpy_codger said:

Don't know about Part A, but I think for energy efficiency and ventilation your AI is talking rubbish. If the concervatory remains a conservatory, not a living space, i.e. is separated by a proper external door, it doesn't have to meat any energy standards.
Personally, I wouldn't bother if the new roof is lightweight and specially designed for conservatories.

The conservatory isn't isolated from the house with external wall. That wall was there before the conservatory was built (before we bought the house), but there is a free corridor from kitchen to the conservatory, so it is partly a living space, depending on what furniture we put in. There is no permanent barrier, like doors, I could shut to separate kitchen from the conservatory. 

grumpy_codger

Ena123 said:

grumpy_codger said:

Don't know about Part A, but I think for energy efficiency and ventilation your AI is talking rubbish. If the concervatory remains a conservatory, not a living space, i.e. is separated by a proper external door, it doesn't have to meat any energy standards.
Personally, I wouldn't bother if the new roof is lightweight and specially designed for conservatories.

The conservatory isn't isolated from the house with external wall. That wall was there before the conservatory was built (before we bought the house), but there is a free corridor from kitchen to the conservatory, so it is partly a living space, depending on what furniture we put in. There is no permanent barrier, like doors, I could shut to separate kitchen from the conservatory. 

In this case it's not likely to qualify for being a living space even with a new roof, windows and doors. I think a retrofit roof best insuation has to be thicker than 20cm to satisfy the current requirements.
Hopefully, the concervatory is more than 10 y.o. Otherwise, I think, the council can force you either to add an external grade door or to demolish it.

Ena123

grumpy_codger said:

Ena123 said:

grumpy_codger said:

Don't know about Part A, but I think for energy efficiency and ventilation your AI is talking rubbish. If the concervatory remains a conservatory, not a living space, i.e. is separated by a proper external door, it doesn't have to meat any energy standards.
Personally, I wouldn't bother if the new roof is lightweight and specially designed for conservatories.

The conservatory isn't isolated from the house with external wall. That wall was there before the conservatory was built (before we bought the house), but there is a free corridor from kitchen to the conservatory, so it is partly a living space, depending on what furniture we put in. There is no permanent barrier, like doors, I could shut to separate kitchen from the conservatory. 

In this case it's not likely to qualify for being a living space even with a new roof, windows and doors. I think a retrofit roof best insuation has to be thicker than 20cm to satisfy the current requirements.
Hopefully, the concervatory is more than 10 y.o. Otherwise, I think, the council can force you either to add an external grade door or to demolish it.

I don't know whether we are on the same page. 
Yes, the conservatory is there for more than 10 years. 
It was attached to the external wall, but the external door on the kitchen was removed to connect the conservatory to the building, and external grade door is on the conservatory now, as it was before, just of different material. It was all wood, now it is upvc, with locks and everything. 
I don't know how thick the roof is, but it is thicker than the one before, and better insulating, also its shape has changed a bit to prevent a horizontal gully in the middle and leaking, which made us to redo the conservatory and the roof. The previous design was not too good. Now it is much better. 

Firstly in this discussion it appeared that if there is a separation wall between the house and conservatory (including the door) the conservatory didn't qualify for a living space. Now when it is clarified that the conservatory is linked with the kitchen and house as such with no door, it still doesn't qualify for a living space? Is the thickness of the roof a defining factor? 

grumpy_codger

Ena123 said:

grumpy_codger said:

Ena123 said:

grumpy_codger said:

Don't know about Part A, but I think for energy efficiency and ventilation your AI is talking rubbish. If the concervatory remains a conservatory, not a living space, i.e. is separated by a proper external door, it doesn't have to meat any energy standards.
Personally, I wouldn't bother if the new roof is lightweight and specially designed for conservatories.

The conservatory isn't isolated from the house with external wall. That wall was there before the conservatory was built (before we bought the house), but there is a free corridor from kitchen to the conservatory, so it is partly a living space, depending on what furniture we put in. There is no permanent barrier, like doors, I could shut to separate kitchen from the conservatory. 

In this case it's not likely to qualify for being a living space even with a new roof, windows and doors. I think a retrofit roof best insuation has to be thicker than 20cm to satisfy the current requirements.
Hopefully, the concervatory is more than 10 y.o. Otherwise, I think, the council can force you either to add an external grade door or to demolish it.

I don't know whether we are on the same page. 
Yes, the conservatory is there for more than 10 years. 

If so, AFAIK, even it was build unlawfully, the council can't force you to demosh of change it.

It was attached to the external wall, but the external door on the kitchen was removed to connect the conservatory to the building, and external grade door is on the conservatory now, as it was before, just of different material. It was all wood, now it is upvc, with locks and everything. 
I don't know how thick the roof is, but it is thicker than the one before, and better insulating, also its shape has changed a bit to prevent a horizontal gully in the middle and leaking, which made us to redo the conservatory and the roof. The previous design was not too good. Now it is much better. 

Better, but still doesn't meet the current regulations.

Firstly in this discussion it appeared that if there is a separation wall between the house and conservatory (including the door) the conservatory didn't qualify for a living space.

If it is separated by an external wall and an external grade door, it doesn't have to meet living space regulations.

Now when it is clarified that the conservatory is linked with the kitchen and house as such with no door, it still doesn't qualify for a living space?

Yes, without a door it doesn't qualify.

Is the thickness of the roof a defining factor? 

It's one of the factors for any living space extension (along with the walls, the floor, the glazing % etc.)

Ena123

grumpy_codger said:

Now when it is clarified that the conservatory is linked with the kitchen and house as such with no door, it still doesn't qualify for a living space?

Yes, without a door it doesn't qualify.

Is the thickness of the roof a defining factor? 

It's one of the factors for any living space extension (along with the walls, the floor, the glazing % etc.)

I still don't get it though. 

So are you saying that only external grade door on the kitchen-conservatory wall would qualify conservatory as living space? This is confusing me. The lay out is literally almost like open plan - free walk from kitchen to the conservatory. They used to have a dining table and sofa in the conservatory. 

grumpy_codger

Ena123 said:

grumpy_codger said:

Now when it is clarified that the conservatory is linked with the kitchen and house as such with no door, it still doesn't qualify for a living space?

Yes, without a door it doesn't qualify.

Is the thickness of the roof a defining factor? 

It's one of the factors for any living space extension (along with the walls, the floor, the glazing % etc.)

I still don't get it though. 

So are you saying that only external grade door on the kitchen-conservatory wall would qualify conservatory as living space? This is confusing me. The lay out is literally almost like open plan - free walk from kitchen to the conservatory. They used to have a dining table and sofa in the conservatory. 

A conservatory can (almost?) never qualify as a living space. That's why it must be separated from a living space by an external grade door.
That's why IMHO it makes little sense to certify minor improvements like in your case. The only way to make a conservatory a proper living space is to replace it with a proper extension (insulated floor,  insulated cavity walls, insulated roof, callculated allowed glazing %.
I'll be happy to be proven wrong by some expert.