Council refuses to allow grave stone inscription

The_Walker

A couple of years ago my father died and I asked the undertaker to arrange a new additional horizonal grave stone to be added to an existing vertical grave, with my father's name on it. This was swiftly done.

This year my mother died and I asked a local stone mason to add my mother's name to the new stone. They asked me to contact the council if I hadn't already done so, which I then did. The council officer informed me the last owner of the grave died in 1945 and they could not allow another name to be added to the grave without updating the grave to a living owner, and this would need to be witnessed by a solicitor etc. I would have to look into my family ancestry and find out who should be owner. 

Since 1945 many names have been added to the family grave, all with no living grave owner. This is includes my father two years ago. So why the change now? Can anyone advise on why this is necessary now? Have guidelines or laws changed to make this necessary? I just want to add my mothers name to the family grave.

Thanks

Isthisforreal99

I assume they need plot owners permission else anyone could add to a stone. Seems perfectly reasonable to me and sounds like you sneaked under the radar previous time amendments were made or they are now more rigidly enforcing the policy.

twopenny

Could you try asking the council who was the last registered owner? That's a start.

Was your father the last owner? Timing would be about right for buying a plot.
Does it pass through the family?

Are the people buried there all marked on the headstone?

Sounds like a brief and standard letter, just try and get more help as to what to do to get permission and say it is the family grave.
You need more details about the process.

But yes I'm a bit surprised because I errected 2 headstones and added a name and don't remember this but perhaps because I'm known locally.

p00hsticks

I think councils may want to know contact details for someone living partly in case the grave becomes unsafe.
I know there was a cemetery near us where several of the older gravestones were in danger of falling over and the council tried to contact living family members to repair them and, if they couldn't find anyone, laid the gravestones flat. 

The_Walker

The last living onwer was my great grandfather, who died in 1945. Yes the people buried there are marked on the headstone.

 I'm not sure who would automatically take on ownership further down the line, possibly me? Am I wrong to assume this is a council cash grab lol? I have visions of yearly fees and an expensive solicitor bill, all so the council can avoid any liability. I don't understand how two years ago it wasn't an issue but now it is?

Grumpy_chap

The_Walker said:

The last living onwer was my great grandfather, who died in 1945. 

Presumably, the plot became and asset of the Estate of your Great Grandfather and should be passed as per his Will (potentially a residual asset) and then follow successive Wills until it reaches the present-day owner.

The_Walker said:

I don't understand how two years ago it wasn't an issue but now it is?

Probably simply that the LA have tightened their processes and ensuring they do not carry maintenance costs that a.n.other party has legal liability for.
Ownership of the plot may be as much a liability for maintenance costs as an asset.

Section62

The_Walker said:

....

Since 1945 many names have been added to the family grave, all with no living grave owner. This is includes my father two years ago. So why the change now? Can anyone advise on why this is necessary now? Have guidelines or laws changed to make this necessary?

Have a look for the council's policy on grave ownership and memorials.  This may have been updated recently, or it could just be the person you spoke to is applying the policy more firmly than has happened in the past.

Also check exactly what the position is with ownership.  Typically a family member is purchasing an exclusive right of burial, along with the right to erect a memorial.  It follows that someone having exclusive rights means other people cannot make amendments without the consent of the owner of the rights.

Did the council give any indication about how they would expect the right of ownership to be handed down through the family?  If not, it wouldn't be unreasonable to work on an 'oldest child' basis - i.e. who is the oldest child of your ggrandfather's oldest child.  Building a basic family tree back that far shouldn't be too difficult if you already know names, and/or you don't have ultra-common surnames.  Sites like FreeBMD provide free access to birth mariage and death information which should be sufficient for the purpose.

I'm not sure what function the council expects a solicitor to perform - maybe you need to clarify that with them?

Shelldean

We had a similar palaver when Hubs nan died. She purchased the grave when her husband died back in 70's.
But she placed it in her son's name as she assumed she'd predecease him and he'd be sorting matter out.
Unfortunately her son my fil died first.
So when Nan died we had a grave we wasn't allowed to place her into.

Hubby who was dealing with everything, had to full out a form to take over the grace.
He had to provide sworn letters by his mum and two sisters that they didn't want the grave. Then it was placed into his name 

So in you case it was owned by gt grandfather, the graves ownership would've passed to his wife if he died first  or his children if he died second 
So I'd say you need to do a family tree and work out who maybe entitled to ownership? Given the distance relationship to yourself there maybe several people who might be entitled to ownership it 
And if your council is a fussy as ours they'll need to renounce their rights??

Savvy_Sue

I do not think there will be an ongoing cost for this: my parents have been in a spot with space for 2 more sets of ashes, for several years, their eldest owns the plot for a fixed number of years at no additional cost. And my MiL's parents are in a triple decker, and we faced a similar situation where the council did not realise that the 'owner' was now occupying their space, leaving no live owner. We've been able to skip a generation to facilitate the likely next use. There's been no mention of an ongoing cost. 

But one question, are you adding ashes / coffins to this family grave? Because there are limits - we can add several sets of ashes to the (eventual) 3 bodies, but No More Bodies. 

I have to say, we've found the cemetery staff very helpful. We didn't even know where the grave was, and there's no stone, but they met us to show us where it was. We'll add a stone next time.

Grey_Critic

Some years ago researching family history I visited Killingbeck Cemetery in Leeds. My father had said many years before that his father who died at Christmas 1912 was buried there. The superintendent was very helpful traced the grave and actually took me to see it.

I also found there were two more relatives unknown to me buried in it. There is/was space for at least one more person. Nobody asked me for proof of ownership or requested a current address and going through a great deal of old documentation I have not found anything about ownership.

Not that I want to be buried there and I am the last of the family so it will just remain there and like many others be forgotten.

Marcon

The_Walker said:

A couple of years ago my father died and I asked the undertaker to arrange a new additional horizonal grave stone to be added to an existing vertical grave, with my father's name on it. This was swiftly done.

This year my mother died and I asked a local stone mason to add my mother's name to the new stone. They asked me to contact the council if I hadn't already done so, which I then did. The council officer informed me the last owner of the grave died in 1945 and they could not allow another name to be added to the grave without updating the grave to a living owner, and this would need to be witnessed by a solicitor etc. I would have to look into my family ancestry and find out who should be owner. 

Since 1945 many names have been added to the family grave, all with no living grave owner. This is includes my father two years ago. So why the change now? Can anyone advise on why this is necessary now? Have guidelines or laws changed to make this necessary? I just want to add my mothers name to the family grave.

Thanks

Have you asked the stonemason? If they do this sort of thing on a reasonably regular basis they may be able to answer your question. If not, go back to the council and ask what's changed.