Demanding a partial rather than full refund

number1luddite

Hi there,

I bought a saxophone online from Cash Converters for £200, which was listed as having physical scratches but no defects. Upon inspection by my saxophone teacher (more than 31 days after purchase, but less than six months), I was told the valves needed some repairs at a cost of £70, but that otherwise it was in good working order.

I contacted Cash Converters to request that they carry out these repairs, as provided by their own warranty and s23 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015. They said they do not offer repairs or exchanges and would only offer me a full refund. As I want to keep the saxophone, I asked for a part refund/price reduction under s24 of the Consumer Rights Act, but again they said they do not offer this (someone on the phone said they stopped offering partial refunds 'about a year ago') and said they would only give me a full refund.

Is it possible to demand a partial refund when a full refund has been offered? I understand that a seller can decline to carry out repairs where this would be too expensive or onerous, but it's unclear to me from the legislation if I can say it would be too onerous to return the product and would like to insist on compensation for the repairs. It would also be helpful to know how to escalate this - is the next stage a small claims action or can I complain somewhere else first?

If it helps, the saxophone was paid for with PayPal's "Pay in 3", the last payment of which is still to go out. So there might be a way of challenging the final payment and deducting from there, but I'm obviously a bit nervous about getting into a full blown dispute over a fairly small amount of money.

Thanks!

visidigi

number1luddite said:

Hi there,

I bought a saxophone online from Cash Converters for £200, which was listed as having physical scratches but no defects. Upon inspection by my saxophone teacher (more than 31 days after purchase, but less than six months), I was told the valves needed some repairs at a cost of £70, but that otherwise it was in good working order.

I contacted Cash Converters to request that they carry out these repairs, as provided by their own warranty and s23 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015. They said they do not offer repairs or exchanges and would only offer me a full refund. As I want to keep the saxophone, I asked for a part refund/price reduction under s24 of the Consumer Rights Act, but again they said they do not offer this (someone on the phone said they stopped offering partial refunds 'about a year ago') and said they would only give me a full refund.

Is it possible to demand a partial refund when a full refund has been offered? I understand that a seller can decline to carry out repairs where this would be too expensive or onerous, but it's unclear to me from the legislation if I can say it would be too onerous to return the product and would like to insist on compensation for the repairs. It would also be helpful to know how to escalate this - is the next stage a small claims action or can I complain somewhere else first?

If it helps, the saxophone was paid for with PayPal's "Pay in 3", the last payment of which is still to go out. So there might be a way of challenging the final payment and deducting from there, but I'm obviously a bit nervous about getting into a full blown dispute over a fairly small amount of money.

Thanks!

Can you demand. No.
Can you ask. Yes
Can they refuse. Yes.

I wouldn't dispute anything with PayPal, they arent going to entertain your ask, when the retailer has offered you a full refund.

Ergates

I would very strongly advise against withholding the final payment.

The question is:  Could you get a similar instrument that *didn't* need the repairs for less than £270 ?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

OP a price reduction is a valid remedy where the retailer fails to provide a repair or replacement. 

Worth a note repair and replacement do not have to be too expensive or onerous, merely that you can not insist on one if it is disproportionate to the other.

Cash Converters are a large company, store or customer services will stick to the script, have a look on CEO email and use the contact there, if no joy send a letter before action, if still no joy follow through with small claims. 

You've read the legislation and are correct that you are entitled to keep the goods and obtain a refund and if it wasn't clear from the wording of the legislation then it's clear from the guidance notes

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/3/4/6

136.The section provides that, if repair or replacement was impossible or if the consumer’s goods continue to be substandard after the consumer has either:
already undergone one repair or replacement of the goods by the trader; or
sought a repair or replacement but this was not carried out within a reasonable time or without significant inconvenient to the consumer,
the consumer may either:keep the goods and insist on a reduction in the price; or
reject the goods and obtain a refund which may, in some circumstances, be subject to a deduction to take account of any use the consumer has had of the goods.

The price reduction should be the difference between what was paid and what was received. 

My understanding is the cost of repair is damages, the implied terms of the contract (including satisfactory quality) apply but the reverse burden of proof doesn't. 

I'm assuming your saxophone teacher will put something on paper to say 1) the valves need replacing 2) a £200 saxophone shouldn't need the valves replacing and thus the goods were not of satisfactory quality by the standards of a reasonable person whilst considering price paid. 

visidigi said:

Can you demand. No.
.....
Can they refuse. Yes.

This isn't correct  

visidigi

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

OP a price reduction is a valid remedy where the retailer fails to provide a repair or replacement. 

Worth a note repair and replacement do not have to be too expensive or onerous, merely that you can not insist on one if it is disproportionate to the other.

Cash Converters are a large company, store or customer services will stick to the script, have a look on CEO email and use the contact there, if no joy send a letter before action, if still no joy follow through with small claims. 

You've read the legislation and are correct that you are entitled to keep the goods and obtain a refund and if it wasn't clear from the wording of the legislation then it's clear from the guidance notes

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/3/4/6

136.The section provides that, if repair or replacement was impossible or if the consumer’s goods continue to be substandard after the consumer has either:

already undergone one repair or replacement of the goods by the trader; or

sought a repair or replacement but this was not carried out within a reasonable time or without significant inconvenient to the consumer,

the consumer may either:

keep the goods and insist on a reduction in the price; or

reject the goods and obtain a refund which may, in some circumstances, be subject to a deduction to take account of any use the consumer has had of the goods.

The price reduction should be the difference between what was paid and what was received. 

My understanding is the cost of repair is damages, the implied terms of the contract (including satisfactory quality) apply but the reverse burden of proof doesn't. 

I'm assuming your saxophone teacher will put something on paper to say 1) the valves need replacing 2) a £200 saxophone shouldn't need the valves replacing and thus the goods were not of satisfactory quality by the standards of a reasonable person whilst considering price paid. 

visidigi said:

Can you demand. No.
.....
Can they refuse. Yes.

This isn't correct  

Sorry, I got that specific part wrong - I should have caveat-ed it with 'realistically'.

A partial reduction is dependent on the value of the goods. A second hand trader dealing with a used saxophone could argue that they sold it very cheaply at £200 and therefore will reduce 10p and you keep it to be compliant.

What's weird though is a saxophone doesn't have valves (according to multiple sources) - its classed as a woodwind item despite being made of metal - so unless the OP is misquoting the teacher the guidance might be completely wrong from the 'expert'.

It does though have pads, reeds, cork felts and cork grease (all of which are consumables) - so unless the tone holes/keys need repair (unlikely) - the work might be classed as consumables, and acceptable standard for sale.

Say like partially worn break pads, tyres etc on a car - passes MOT, but its worn - sold with an MOT which warrants its safe for the road.

sheramber

I think you need to contact a professional who can service the saxophone. 

Someone who knows what they are doing as  it appears your saxophone teacher doesn’t. They managed to quote a price for something that cannot be done since a  Saxophone does not have valves. 

It is likely a service has not been done for a while.

number1luddite

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the advice. Just to be clear, it's the pads that have been replaced - I was using valves as an incorrect shorthand (I am just learning after all).

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head, thanks for confirming my reading - I'd missed that line about "the consumer" in the statutory guidance! I'll try following up with head office now.

visidigi

SO number1luddite said:

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the advice. Just to be clear, it's the pads that have been replaced - I was using valves as an incorrect shorthand (I am just learning after all).

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head, thanks for confirming my reading - I'd missed that line about "the consumer" in the statutory guidance! I'll try following up with head office now.

So you have already had the consumables replaced?

A consumable part is not a defect in the product - unless they advertised it as 'plays like new' its a used product which might have wear and tear.