Intestacy, Joint Tenants & IHT Liabilities?

gjcody

No, I am not talking nonsense, as I asked earlier; where did you read law?

Whilst she may be entitled to the Estate, nothing can be given away until the process of Probate is complete. Probate is required for all Intestate Estates; you cannot legally administer an Estate without the authority of the Probate Court.

The IHT is irrelevant at this stage, and is not dealt with by the Probate Court? The Probate system merely authorizes an individual(s) to administer the Estate, to apply to the Land Registry to have property titles changed, to pay the deceased income tax, close their bank accounts,change a V5 at the DVLA, etc. The Chattels are not a lump sum and 50% of the household good must be attributed for the deceased IHT calculation, along with 50% of the family home given the Joint Tenancy. Early distribution is very much an issue; if the brothers take anything from the Estate they cannot claim to have a bean from it, what is it you do not understand about “disclaim”, if they take anything then the Intestate allocations will apply and they will have to pay the full amount of IHT!

Any Executor who permits the releases of anything is in breach of their duties and personally legally and financially liable for any loss! Banks seldom release large sums without probate, particularly High Street banks, many only agree to cover funeral expenses.

No, the marital home is not 'covered' as it is a Joint property, with no Will, that others (the brothers) have a possible claim to, that share must be added to the IHT calculation; here is the extract for the website I point to, which you have clearly not read:

“Joint tenants

You automatically inherit anything you owned as ‘joint tenants’.

You may have to pay Inheritance Tax if the whole of the deceased’s estate (all their money, property and possessions) is worth more than the Inheritance Tax threshold of £325,000 and the deceased’s estate does not pay.”

In this case it exceeds the threshold, by some amount. If the brothers disclaim of course everything falls under Spousal Exemption and no IHT will be due, which is rather the point of my post!

noitsnotme

gjcody said:

Banks seldom release large sums without probate, particularly High Street banks, many only agree to cover funeral expenses.

That’s not true.  Many high street banks release large sums without probate.  The upper limit is usually £50000.  Lloyds for example released almost that amount without probate after my mother in law died.  (I’ve just looked it up and apparently they will pay out up to £25k without probate if there is no will).  Santander also released just over £20k from an ISA without probate (their limit is also £50k).

And let’s be honest, there are no post death knick-knack police going round checking whether personal possessions of the deceased have been given away!!  It might not supposed to happen but it does and no one is getting hauled in front of a court over it.

gjcody

noitsnotme said:

gjcody said:

Banks seldom release large sums without probate, particularly High Street banks, many only agree to cover funeral expenses.

That’s not true.  Many high street banks release large sums without probate.  The upper limit is usually £50000.  Lloyds for example released almost that amount without probate after my mother in law died.  (I’ve just looked it up and apparently they will pay out up to £25k without probate if there is no will).  Santander also released just over £20k from an ISA without probate (their limit is also £50k).

And let’s be honest, there are no post death knick-knack police going round checking whether personal possessions of the deceased have been given away!!  It might not supposed to happen but it does and no one is getting hauled in front of a court over it.

Without a Will??  You don't need the knick-knack police, all that is required is someone who feels left out or slighted to draw the attention of HMRC to the fact, and if either brother posses anything then their disclaim will fail and the full amount of IHT will be levied.  

noitsnotme

gjcody said:

noitsnotme said:

gjcody said:

Banks seldom release large sums without probate, particularly High Street banks, many only agree to cover funeral expenses.

That’s not true.  Many high street banks release large sums without probate.  The upper limit is usually £50000.  Lloyds for example released almost that amount without probate after my mother in law died.  (I’ve just looked it up and apparently they will pay out up to £25k without probate if there is no will).  Santander also released just over £20k from an ISA without probate (their limit is also £50k).

And let’s be honest, there are no post death knick-knack police going round checking whether personal possessions of the deceased have been given away!!  It might not supposed to happen but it does and no one is getting hauled in front of a court over it.

Without a Will??  You don't need the knick-knack police, all that is required is someone who feels left out or slighted to draw the attention of HMRC to the fact, and if either brother posses anything then their disclaim will fail and the full amount of IHT will be levied.  

That’s the risk people take.  How many cases are HMRC investigating following a disgruntled relatives report?  A fraction of next to nothing I would imagine.  I get it, people are not supposed to give stuff away early, but it happens all the time.

“Without a will?” - https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/probate-solicitors/bank-limits-thresholds-probate/

“Bank of Scotland - £25,000 if the person who died didn't have a will”

”Halifax - £25,000 if the person who died didn't have a will”

“Lloyds Bank - £25,000 if the person who died didn't have a will”

I assume LoA will be required?

gjcody

noitsnotme said:

gjcody said:

noitsnotme said:

gjcody said:

Banks seldom release large sums without probate, particularly High Street banks, many only agree to cover funeral expenses.

That’s not true.  Many high street banks release large sums without probate.  The upper limit is usually £50000.  Lloyds for example released almost that amount without probate after my mother in law died.  (I’ve just looked it up and apparently they will pay out up to £25k without probate if there is no will).  Santander also released just over £20k from an ISA without probate (their limit is also £50k).

And let’s be honest, there are no post death knick-knack police going round checking whether personal possessions of the deceased have been given away!!  It might not supposed to happen but it does and no one is getting hauled in front of a court over it.

Without a Will??  You don't need the knick-knack police, all that is required is someone who feels left out or slighted to draw the attention of HMRC to the fact, and if either brother posses anything then their disclaim will fail and the full amount of IHT will be levied.  

That’s the risk people take.  How many cases are HMRC investigating following a disgruntled relatives report?  A fraction of next to nothing I would imagine.  I get it, people are not supposed to give stuff away early, but it happens all the time.

“Without a will?” - https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/probate-solicitors/bank-limits-thresholds-probate/

“Bank of Scotland - £25,000 if the person who died didn't have a will”

”Halifax - £25,000 if the person who died didn't have a will”

“Lloyds Bank - £25,000 if the person who died didn't have a will”

I handle probate all the time, I have two going on at the moment and can assure you it is not as simple as webpages would lead you to believe.  I know Lloyd's will not from first hand experience last week  

noitsnotme

gjcody said:

noitsnotme said:

gjcody said:

noitsnotme said:

gjcody said:

Banks seldom release large sums without probate, particularly High Street banks, many only agree to cover funeral expenses.

That’s not true.  Many high street banks release large sums without probate.  The upper limit is usually £50000.  Lloyds for example released almost that amount without probate after my mother in law died.  (I’ve just looked it up and apparently they will pay out up to £25k without probate if there is no will).  Santander also released just over £20k from an ISA without probate (their limit is also £50k).

And let’s be honest, there are no post death knick-knack police going round checking whether personal possessions of the deceased have been given away!!  It might not supposed to happen but it does and no one is getting hauled in front of a court over it.

Without a Will??  You don't need the knick-knack police, all that is required is someone who feels left out or slighted to draw the attention of HMRC to the fact, and if either brother posses anything then their disclaim will fail and the full amount of IHT will be levied.  

That’s the risk people take.  How many cases are HMRC investigating following a disgruntled relatives report?  A fraction of next to nothing I would imagine.  I get it, people are not supposed to give stuff away early, but it happens all the time.

“Without a will?” - https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/probate-solicitors/bank-limits-thresholds-probate/

“Bank of Scotland - £25,000 if the person who died didn't have a will”

”Halifax - £25,000 if the person who died didn't have a will”

“Lloyds Bank - £25,000 if the person who died didn't have a will”

I handle probate all the time, I have two going on at the moment and can assure you it is not as simple as webpages would lead you to believe.  I know Lloyd's will not from first hand experience last week  

While they do show a disclaimer on that page, I doubt Co-op legal services would print something that was 100% incorrect.  They do clarify that banks can ask for probate even when values are under their thresholds. 

Keep_pedalling

gjcody said:

noitsnotme said:

gjcody said:

noitsnotme said:

gjcody said:

Banks seldom release large sums without probate, particularly High Street banks, many only agree to cover funeral expenses.

That’s not true.  Many high street banks release large sums without probate.  The upper limit is usually £50000.  Lloyds for example released almost that amount without probate after my mother in law died.  (I’ve just looked it up and apparently they will pay out up to £25k without probate if there is no will).  Santander also released just over £20k from an ISA without probate (their limit is also £50k).

And let’s be honest, there are no post death knick-knack police going round checking whether personal possessions of the deceased have been given away!!  It might not supposed to happen but it does and no one is getting hauled in front of a court over it.

Without a Will??  You don't need the knick-knack police, all that is required is someone who feels left out or slighted to draw the attention of HMRC to the fact, and if either brother posses anything then their disclaim will fail and the full amount of IHT will be levied.  

That’s the risk people take.  How many cases are HMRC investigating following a disgruntled relatives report?  A fraction of next to nothing I would imagine.  I get it, people are not supposed to give stuff away early, but it happens all the time.

“Without a will?” - https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/probate-solicitors/bank-limits-thresholds-probate/

“Bank of Scotland - £25,000 if the person who died didn't have a will”

”Halifax - £25,000 if the person who died didn't have a will”

“Lloyds Bank - £25,000 if the person who died didn't have a will”

I handle probate all the time, I have two going on at the moment and can assure you it is not as simple as webpages would lead you to believe.  I know Lloyd's will not from first hand experience last week  

Does that mean you are a professional rather than a lay administrator like the rest of us? 

gjcody

Keep_pedalling said:

gjcody said:

noitsnotme said:

gjcody said:

noitsnotme said:

gjcody said:

Banks seldom release large sums without probate, particularly High Street banks, many only agree to cover funeral expenses.

That’s not true.  Many high street banks release large sums without probate.  The upper limit is usually £50000.  Lloyds for example released almost that amount without probate after my mother in law died.  (I’ve just looked it up and apparently they will pay out up to £25k without probate if there is no will).  Santander also released just over £20k from an ISA without probate (their limit is also £50k).

And let’s be honest, there are no post death knick-knack police going round checking whether personal possessions of the deceased have been given away!!  It might not supposed to happen but it does and no one is getting hauled in front of a court over it.

Without a Will??  You don't need the knick-knack police, all that is required is someone who feels left out or slighted to draw the attention of HMRC to the fact, and if either brother posses anything then their disclaim will fail and the full amount of IHT will be levied.  

That’s the risk people take.  How many cases are HMRC investigating following a disgruntled relatives report?  A fraction of next to nothing I would imagine.  I get it, people are not supposed to give stuff away early, but it happens all the time.

“Without a will?” - https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/probate-solicitors/bank-limits-thresholds-probate/

“Bank of Scotland - £25,000 if the person who died didn't have a will”

”Halifax - £25,000 if the person who died didn't have a will”

“Lloyds Bank - £25,000 if the person who died didn't have a will”

I handle probate all the time, I have two going on at the moment and can assure you it is not as simple as webpages would lead you to believe.  I know Lloyd's will not from first hand experience last week  

Does that mean you are a professional rather than a lay administrator like the rest of us? 

No, I am long since retired; though far to qualified to be lay.  Its something I was dragged in to during Covid as I was stuck in the UK and it hasn't really stopped since.

Keep_pedalling

gjcody said:

No, I am not talking nonsense, as I asked earlier; where did you read law?

I have no legal qualifications, but that applies to most of the regulars on this board we have learned through our own experiences and pass that knowledge on to others.

If you are a professional you should read rule 4 of the forum rules before posting.

Whilst she may be entitled to the Estate, nothing can be given away until the process of Probate is complete. Probate is required for all Intestate Estates; you cannot legally administer an Estate without the authority of the Probate Court.

I will say again in the case of a spouse this is nonsense. Some things have to be dealt with more urgently than that and such ridged rules would prevent you from disposing of the deceased car that  is illegally parked on a public road.

The IHT is irrelevant at this stage, and is not dealt with by the Probate Court? The Probate system merely authorizes an individual(s) to administer the Estate, to apply to the Land Registry to have property titles changed, to pay the deceased income tax, close their bank accounts,change a V5 at the DVLA, etc. The Chattels are not a lump sum and 50% of the household good must be attributed for the deceased IHT calculation, along with 50% of the family home given the Joint Tenancy. Early distribution is very much an issue; if the brothers take anything from the Estate they cannot claim to have a bean from it, what is it you do not understand about “disclaim”, if they take anything then the Intestate allocations will apply and they will have to pay the full amount of IHT!

It is common practice to lump the bulk of the chattels as one nominal some because the second hand value of most of these is going to be a pretty low value. I was also not talking about the OP disposing of any of this stuff but their mother has every right to do so. 

Any Executor who permits the releases of anything is in breach of their duties and personally legally and financially liable for any loss! Banks seldom release large sums without probate, particularly High Street banks, many only agree to cover funeral expenses.

Barclays released my mother’s savings of over £20k to me within 24 hours of me providing a copy of her will and proof of ID. It may be different for a professional administrator or someone not closely related to the deceased, but there are plenty of other cases on here where money has been released without fuss or undue delay.

No, the marital home is not 'covered' as it is a Joint property, with no Will, that others (the brothers) have a possible claim to, that share must be added to the IHT calculation; here is the extract for the website I point to, which you have clearly not read:

The children have no claim on the marital home it is not part of the inheritable estate.

“Joint tenants

You automatically inherit anything you owned as ‘joint tenants’.

You may have to pay Inheritance Tax if the whole of the deceased’s estate (all their money, property and possessions) is worth more than the Inheritance Tax threshold of £325,000 and the deceased’s estate does not pay.”

In this case it exceeds the threshold, by some amount. If the brothers disclaim of course everything falls under Spousal Exemption and no IHT will be due, which is rather the point of my post!

The last point is not relevant in this case even if the siblings claim their inheritance under intestacy rules the amount they will get is way under the NRB so nothing will be payable. The surviving spouse’s estate will have less in the way off exemptions but will also have less in the way of assets so overall there will be little or no impact on the eventual IHT liability of her estate whether the children take their share or pass it to their mother via a DoV.

I think this whole debate about chattels is not helpful to the OP and has somewhat hijacked this thread, so I won’t be adding any further comment. 

gjcody

Keep_pedalling said:

gjcody said:

No, I am not talking nonsense, as I asked earlier; where did you read law?

I have no legal qualifications, but that applies to most of the regulars on this board we have learned through our own experiences and pass that knowledge on to others.

If you are a professional you should read rule 4 of the forum rules before posting.

Whilst she may be entitled to the Estate, nothing can be given away until the process of Probate is complete. Probate is required for all Intestate Estates; you cannot legally administer an Estate without the authority of the Probate Court.

I will say again in the case of a spouse this is nonsense. Some things have to be dealt with more urgently than that and such ridged rules would prevent you from disposing of the deceased car that  is illegally parked on a public road.

The IHT is irrelevant at this stage, and is not dealt with by the Probate Court? The Probate system merely authorizes an individual(s) to administer the Estate, to apply to the Land Registry to have property titles changed, to pay the deceased income tax, close their bank accounts,change a V5 at the DVLA, etc. The Chattels are not a lump sum and 50% of the household good must be attributed for the deceased IHT calculation, along with 50% of the family home given the Joint Tenancy. Early distribution is very much an issue; if the brothers take anything from the Estate they cannot claim to have a bean from it, what is it you do not understand about “disclaim”, if they take anything then the Intestate allocations will apply and they will have to pay the full amount of IHT!

It is common practice to lump the bulk of the chattels as one nominal some because the second hand value of most of these is going to be a pretty low value. I was also not talking about the OP disposing of any of this stuff but their mother has every right to do so. 

Any Executor who permits the releases of anything is in breach of their duties and personally legally and financially liable for any loss! Banks seldom release large sums without probate, particularly High Street banks, many only agree to cover funeral expenses.

Barclays released my mother’s savings of over £20k to me within 24 hours of me providing a copy of her will and proof of ID. It may be different for a professional administrator or someone not closely related to the deceased, but there are plenty of other cases on here where money has been released without fuss or undue delay.

No, the marital home is not 'covered' as it is a Joint property, with no Will, that others (the brothers) have a possible claim to, that share must be added to the IHT calculation; here is the extract for the website I point to, which you have clearly not read:

The children have no claim on the marital home it is not part of the inheritable estate.

“Joint tenants

You automatically inherit anything you owned as ‘joint tenants’.

You may have to pay Inheritance Tax if the whole of the deceased’s estate (all their money, property and possessions) is worth more than the Inheritance Tax threshold of £325,000 and the deceased’s estate does not pay.”

In this case it exceeds the threshold, by some amount. If the brothers disclaim of course everything falls under Spousal Exemption and no IHT will be due, which is rather the point of my post!

The last point is not relevant in this case even if the siblings claim their inheritance under intestacy rules the amount they will get is way under the NRB so nothing will be payable. The surviving spouse’s estate will have less in the way off exemptions but will also have less in the way of assets so overall there will be little or no impact on the eventual IHT liability of her estate whether the children take their share or pass it to their mother via a DoV.

I think this whole debate about chattels 

No, you don't have any qualification, that has been apparent throughout your posts. Passing on erroneous information does who any good?

As I said, I am not a professional, I retired over a decade ago. Hence my line that he sought advice from a current professional.

The case of the spouse is not nonsense, you clear are not grasping joint tenancy and intestate. The rules are rigid for a reason and many of what you call 'rules' are actually statuted law, Disclaiming for instance is covered by the 1984 Inheritance Act.

Common it may be in your mind, but HMRC require as near an accurate figure as the Executor can produce, along with the evidence to support his case. And they of course, as I pointed out are legally responsible for any loss, which includes taxes due to their negligence. This is one reason you can even insure yourself against such!

I don't see £20k are a large sum myself, and compared to the Estate of £1m it is a pittance. Though of course as you say, you had a Will which is sadly something that is lacking in this case, and it is that fact that is at the bottom of the whole issue, which is something you really are not grasping.

You are again missing the vital point, despite my posting the extract from the Joint Property page; the trouble arises if they do not included the monetary value of the property in the figures of the deceased possession, which you are convinced they don't need to some some odd reason; this will cause the IHT fight to be incorrect and therefore any tax levied on the Estate to be wrong, when, as the aforementioned document says “You may have to pay” IHT.

I suggest you spend sometime reading the HMRC Inheritance Tax Manual before you dispense advice that could cost people dearly.