My new Citroen Hybrid is too expensive to charge and cheaper to run on petrol? Yeap, it's bizarre.

shinytop

Peter999_2 said:

Hybrids are the worst of both worlds.   Not a large enough battery to get enough miles and still with the petrol engine and it's thousands of moving parts that can go wrong.    I have never understood the purpose of hybrids - either get a full electric (so long as you can charge at home on the cheap 7-8p per kWh rate) or buy a petrol/diesel car.

I get enough E miles to do all my local city driving/commuting at 2-3p per mile and with zero tailpipe emissions.  Then at the weekend I can go as far as I like without having to recharge.  I'm fairly confident my petrol engine isn't going to go wrong.   

A pure petrol or diesel would cost me more to run and be more polluting. An EV would stop me driving where and when I want to go. 

Why is my hybrid the worst of both worlds?  

Gobsh

Mildly_Miffed said:

The hybrid battery is 13.2kWh, but you aren't putting that much into it when you plug in. You're probably using 80% of the capacity at most - so 10.5kWh, so 2.4 miles/kWh, so at 25p/kWh, a gnat under 10p/mile, worst case.

58mpg is 12.8 miles/litre.
£1.40/litre is 10.8p/mile.

But if you have an E7 meter, and charge overnight at 14.5p/kWh, that per mile rate comes down to 6p. Other tariffs may reduce that further, or it can be free from domestic solar.

Also, you say you are getting 58mpg on the motorway - but that's your best case, where you're going to be assisted by using the hybridisation to assist acceleration and climbing hills, while regenerating from deceleration and descents. And what economy if you were 100% on petrol in town, where the hybrid would be running purely on electricity most of the time?

Hybrid ranges are calculated using the exact same process as official fuel consumption figures - the WLTP test cycle. You say you don't know how it's "legal" to make their claims... it would be illegal to use any other figures in marketing.

Not saying how it's it legal to make the claims, which are purely based upon statistic (eg battery capacity/weight). I'm saying how it's it legal to release a car that cannot even achieve half the performance estimated by the statistics. Basically, that just because statistics are generated by a 3rd party doesn't make Citroen immune from actual performances. Which a lot of posters seem to deduce 🤔

MattMattMattUK

shinytop said:

Peter999_2 said:

Hybrids are the worst of both worlds.   Not a large enough battery to get enough miles and still with the petrol engine and it's thousands of moving parts that can go wrong.    I have never understood the purpose of hybrids - either get a full electric (so long as you can charge at home on the cheap 7-8p per kWh rate) or buy a petrol/diesel car.

I get enough E miles to do all my local city driving/commuting at 2-3p per mile and with zero tailpipe emissions.  Then at the weekend I can go as far as I like without having to recharge.  I'm fairly confident my petrol engine isn't going to go wrong.   

A pure petrol or diesel would cost me more to run and be more polluting. An EV would stop me driving where and when I want to go. 

Why is my hybrid the worst of both worlds?  

A hybrid in most cases will be less efficient in both ICE and EV mode than a pure ICE or EV car. In EV mode it has to lug heavy engine and fuel tank around, as well as being less efficient due to not being designed from the ground up as an EV, in ICE mode it has to lug around a heavy battery, there can be a small window where it can be more efficient than an ICE vehicle and it never gets particularly close to an EV. Maintenance also costs more, there are more things to go wrong vs an EV where the maintenance is much lower. 

Over the summer I have averaged 1.84p per mile, including some supercharging on longer journeys. I have never not been able to drive me where and when I want to go. Overnight every night it charges up to 80%, if I wanted to that would be around 240 miles, but I can also supercharge in lots of locations and that can easily put another 150-200 miles in the car in less than half an hour, I would not want to drive more than 200 miles without stopping for a break on a journey anyway. I have done 250 miles without charging a few times and still had 20% left, I knew I could charge at my destination so no issue with that. 

I drive an EV, I do not ever plan to go back to an ICE vehicle, but if I did have to for some reason I would be going with a pure petrol engine.

MattMattMattUK

Gobsh said:

Mildly_Miffed said:

The hybrid battery is 13.2kWh, but you aren't putting that much into it when you plug in. You're probably using 80% of the capacity at most - so 10.5kWh, so 2.4 miles/kWh, so at 25p/kWh, a gnat under 10p/mile, worst case.

58mpg is 12.8 miles/litre.
£1.40/litre is 10.8p/mile.

But if you have an E7 meter, and charge overnight at 14.5p/kWh, that per mile rate comes down to 6p. Other tariffs may reduce that further, or it can be free from domestic solar.

Also, you say you are getting 58mpg on the motorway - but that's your best case, where you're going to be assisted by using the hybridisation to assist acceleration and climbing hills, while regenerating from deceleration and descents. And what economy if you were 100% on petrol in town, where the hybrid would be running purely on electricity most of the time?

Hybrid ranges are calculated using the exact same process as official fuel consumption figures - the WLTP test cycle. You say you don't know how it's "legal" to make their claims... it would be illegal to use any other figures in marketing.

Not saying how it's it legal to make the claims, which are purely based upon statistic (eg battery capacity/weight). I'm saying how it's it legal to release a car that cannot even achieve half the performance estimated by the statistics

If you drove the car in the same way as the test cycle then you would get the stated mileage. Cars are made, then independently WLTP tested, which gives the mileage figures, car manufacturers must use those figures in sales and marketing, they cannot use a higher or lower figure. 

Grumpy_chap

shinytop said:

 An EV would stop me driving where and when I want to go. 
 

Why?
In 2 1/2 years, I struggled finding enough need to charge away from home to use the free charging miles provided at purchase.

kinger101

shinytop said:

Peter999_2 said:

Hybrids are the worst of both worlds.   Not a large enough battery to get enough miles and still with the petrol engine and it's thousands of moving parts that can go wrong.    I have never understood the purpose of hybrids - either get a full electric (so long as you can charge at home on the cheap 7-8p per kWh rate) or buy a petrol/diesel car.

I get enough E miles to do all my local city driving/commuting at 2-3p per mile and with zero tailpipe emissions.  Then at the weekend I can go as far as I like without having to recharge.  I'm fairly confident my petrol engine isn't going to go wrong.   

A pure petrol or diesel would cost me more to run and be more polluting. An EV would stop me driving where and when I want to go. 

Why is my hybrid the worst of both worlds?  

I think that's a good observation.  If you have a short daily commute within the range of the PHEV, but want to occasionally drive longer distances, then I can be practical.  If you are not charging with standard rate leccy.

If that isn't you, PHEV isn't a good idea.

But most modern EVs have a good range and can be charged relatively quickly.  On long journeys, you should be having breaks anyway.

shinytop

Grumpy_chap said:

shinytop said:

 An EV would stop me driving where and when I want to go. 
 

Why?
In 2 1/2 years, I struggled finding enough need to charge away from home to use the free charging miles provided at purchase.

Because I regularly do a near 300 mile round trip all year round without destination charging and I don't want to add time to that journey by stopping to charge.  I could manage with an EV but I'm doing about 70% of my miles in EV mode now (and near 100% of my urban driving) so I think I'm doing OK emissions-wise.

Ectophile

Gobsh said:

Mildly_Miffed said:

The hybrid battery is 13.2kWh, but you aren't putting that much into it when you plug in. You're probably using 80% of the capacity at most - so 10.5kWh, so 2.4 miles/kWh, so at 25p/kWh, a gnat under 10p/mile, worst case.

58mpg is 12.8 miles/litre.
£1.40/litre is 10.8p/mile.

But if you have an E7 meter, and charge overnight at 14.5p/kWh, that per mile rate comes down to 6p. Other tariffs may reduce that further, or it can be free from domestic solar.

Also, you say you are getting 58mpg on the motorway - but that's your best case, where you're going to be assisted by using the hybridisation to assist acceleration and climbing hills, while regenerating from deceleration and descents. And what economy if you were 100% on petrol in town, where the hybrid would be running purely on electricity most of the time?

Hybrid ranges are calculated using the exact same process as official fuel consumption figures - the WLTP test cycle. You say you don't know how it's "legal" to make their claims... it would be illegal to use any other figures in marketing.

Not saying how it's it legal to make the claims, which are purely based upon statistic (eg battery capacity/weight). I'm saying how it's it legal to release a car that cannot even achieve half the performance estimated by the statistics. Basically, that just because statistics are generated by a 3rd party doesn't make Citroen immune from actual performances. Which a lot of posters seem to deduce 🤔

The WLTP figures aren't theoretical.  The car is placed on a rolling road in a laboratory.  The driver then drives the car at different speeds to follow the pattern dictated by the WLTP test.  So it must actually be possible to achieve the stated figure. Somebody has done it on the test.

But the test laboratory will be warm. It won't simulate cold weather driving. All unnecessary electrics will be turned off, as will the air conditioning.

And the car manufacturers know what the test cycle is.  Short of actually cheating, they can tweak the car however they like to get the best results on that test. For example, on a manual gearbox, they can adjust all the gear ratios so that the car is at its most efficient at whatever speeds come up most often during the test.

facade

Ectophile said:

<snip>

And the car manufacturers know what the test cycle is.  Short of actually cheating, they can tweak the car however they like to get the best results on that test. For example, on a manual gearbox, they can adjust all the gear ratios so that the car is at its most efficient at whatever speeds come up most often during the test.

Probably the reason why they cripple the alternator except during engine warmup, which wouldn't be tested in WLTP, then just don't turn the steering or use the aircon for minimum fuel consumption.

Grumpy_chap

shinytop said:

Grumpy_chap said:

shinytop said:

 An EV would stop me driving where and when I want to go. 
 

Why?
In 2 1/2 years, I struggled finding enough need to charge away from home to use the free charging miles provided at purchase.

Because I regularly do a near 300 mile round trip all year round without destination charging and I don't want to add time to that journey by stopping to charge.  I could manage with an EV but I'm doing about 70% of my miles in EV mode now (and near 100% of my urban driving) so I think I'm doing OK emissions-wise.

You do know that there are many EVs that will easily do 300 miles real world on a single charge and plenty to spare?
In fact, that's the very reason I struggled to use up the free charging included as part of the package when I bought the car.

Your 300 mile trip is - obviously - 150 miles each way so (unless you start and end on the motorway junction) at least 3 hours each way in which a comfort break would be recommended.  A "splash and dash" charge during that comfort break would not add anything to your journey time.