Universal Credit Tenancy Agreement Occupancy Issue

Dave1UK

Hi,

Long story short, my father is out of work and has been for several years (on ESA), my mother has been his career until recently. My brother who works, lives with them. Until recently whereby they received a universal credit migration letter housing benefit has been paying for my parents share of the rent to our council/housing association, whereby my brother would top up the shortfall with whatever housing benefit deemed reasonable based on his wages amount.

There has been a lot of back and forth between universal credit, housing benefit and the council, with me chasing everyone for clarification and agreement.

The tenancy agreement they have is a secured tenancy. My father is the tenant, my mother is listed as a joint tenant and my brother is listed as 'other'. The way I understand it and the way the agreement outlays it, is that there are 2 tenants, basically my brother isn't classified as a tenant (no clue why).

Anyhow I have input this to universal credit, i.e. 2 tenants and then there was an options to put others that live with you. However there was and is no option as to put my brother as also paying a share of the rent. Based on last month, universal credit had paid my parents the FULL rent, which obviously isn't correct and I don't want it to get to a stage few years down the line where there is a backlog amount to be repaid or whatnot.

I have tried to change the housing details to put 3 tenants, this would allow the rent to be split equally between all but the council/housing association that we rent from are not accepting that on their end (through the system) and are coming back to universal credit stating that there are only 2 on the tenancy so the system doesn't allow that change. Absolute shambles.

Honestly all parties involved are being useless and of no help, has anyone experienced or dealt with a similar case?

Thanks.

sammyjammy

How old is your brother and what are his circumstances?  The rules under Universal credit with adult non dependants are different than that of Housing Benefit.

huckster

Other means that your brother is not a tenant and is just an other adult living at the address?

I have come across other adults being named in this way, so there is possibility of them taking over tenancy or living at address after parents have died.

Dave1UK

sammyjammy said:

How old is your brother and what are his circumstances?  The rules under Universal credit with adult non dependants are different than that of Housing Benefit.

He's 23, working full time. Has been paying his share of the rent and also council tax at the property whilst my parents were on housing benefit. Forgot to add, it's a 2-bed flat, he has his own room.

Yeah wasn't aware, I was also confused as to who sets what amount is paid by who etc. As housing benefit would determine that based on their own wage/income bands on how much rental shortfall to be covered is.

huckster said:

Other means that your brother is not a tenant and is just an other adult living at the address?

I have come across other adults being named in this way, so there is possibility of them taking over tenancy or living at address after parents have died.

Yeah it seems so.

Robbie64

Housing Benefit were treating your brother as a non-dependet who is living in someone else's household. The HB your parents received was reduced by a fixed amount based on how much your brother was earning. Rhe same should have been applicable to any council tax reduction / support that is payable. It will be the maximum CTR/S payable for your mother and father less a fixed amount based on your brother's wages.

Based on the above, your brother isn't a tenant and shouldn't be entered as being one. He should instead be recorded on your parent's UC claim as living in their house.

Newcad

You brother is not a tenant, he is not liable to pay any rent, he does not qualify for HB or UC Housing Element.

The HB paid was entirely your parents entitlement, but-

It appears that the council was treating your brother as a non-dependant adult living at the property and so expected to contribute to household costs; including the rent.

Accordingly the council had been making a 'non-dependant deduction' from your parents HB amount,
That deduction meant that a top-up was needed to pay the full rent, and so your brother made up the difference - that is exactly how it is supposed to work.

Now however Universal Credit are no longer treating you brother as being a non-dependant adult living at the property and so Universal Credit are not making a 'non-dependant deduction from your parents UC', which means that your parents are getting the full rent as UC-Housing Element and no top-up is needed.

The question is are UC correct to do that in the circumstances?

They may be correct, they may not be - it does depend on other circumstances.
In particular does your father get PIP or DLA? If so then a  non-dependant deduction does not apply in their UC.
https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/benefits/universal_credit_housing_cost_contributions

You also say that :"my mother has been his career until recently."  has your Brother taken over caring duties, is he  claiming Carers Allowance? If he is claiming CA the non-dependant deduction ceases to apply to him.

Dave1UK

Robbie64 said:

Housing Benefit were treating your brother as a non-dependet who is living in someone else's household. The HB your parents received was reduced by a fixed amount based on how much your brother was earning. Rhe same should have been applicable to any council tax reduction / support that is payable. It will be the maximum CTR/S payable for your mother and father less a fixed amount based on your brother's wages.

Based on the above, your brother isn't a tenant and shouldn't be entered as being one. He should instead be recorded on your parent's UC claim as living in their house.

Yes all is correct to my knowledge. Yes he is entered as someone living in their house.

Newcad said:

You brother is not a tenant, he is not liable to pay any rent, he does not qualify for HB or UC Housing Element.

The HB paid was entirely your parents entitlement, but-

It appears that the council was treating your brother as a non-dependant adult living at the property and so expected to contribute to household costs; including the rent.

Accordingly the council had been making a 'non-dependant deduction' from your parents HB amount,
That deduction meant that a top-up was needed to pay the full rent, and so your brother made up the difference - that is exactly how it is supposed to work.

Now however Universal Credit are no longer treating you brother as being a non-dependant adult living at the property and so Universal Credit are not making a 'non-dependant deduction from your parents UC', which means that your parents are getting the full rent as UC-Housing Element and no top-up is needed.

The question is are UC correct to do that in the circumstances?

They may be correct, they may not be - it does depend on other circumstances.
In particular does your father get PIP or DLA? If so then a  non-dependant deduction does not apply in their UC.
https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/benefits/universal_credit_housing_cost_contributions

You also say that :"my mother has been his career until recently."  has your Brother taken over caring duties, is he  claiming Carers Allowance? If he is claiming CA the non-dependant deduction ceases to apply to him.

My father used to be on PIP but that stopped a while back (not sure why). He is currently only on ESA also now the UC joint claim.

I believe for his ESA there is a DLA (Disabled Living Allowance?) element if that's a thing unless it's totally separate like PIP being a different entity? If the section "Extra money because of the Disability Income Guarantee" on his ESA letter constitutes as DLA then yes.

No my brother hasn't taken over caring. Prior to the UC migration notice my mother has been and still is taking care of my father for several years. For whatever reason my parents weren't aware of carers allowance until now, and never claimed it, hence I guess it was "unofficial?". However since migrating to UC my father has been advised to apply for PIP and thereafter my mother can apply for carers allowance. As for now my mother is expected and is looking for work whilst caring for my father as well which isn't an ideal situation. UC do not recognise my mother as a carer (officially) unless she is in receipt of carers allowance, that's what I meant by my statement "my mother has been his career until recently.".

It seems as of now (today), UC have accepted the tenancy as 2 tenants and then my brother as living there. I'm not sure what proportion of rent UC will contribute until statement comes through. I don't wish to rattle anymore feathers as I have already been back and forth enough, making multiple changes on the UC system whereby I do believe both parties are probably sick of it by now!

If it turns out that the full rent is covered by UC this definitely makes 0 sense to me, will be ideal for my brother as it would anyone but it just doesn't seem right? Don't want this to then few years down the line pop up with a huge repayment, even though we have already done everything we can to try rectify and get to the bottom of it all! It definitely does seem like the system is broken as some say?

KxMx

If neither of your parents receive PIP, then a non dependant deduction should be made to Housing Element as it was for Housing Benefit.

If dad is now on New Style ESA + UC, that means before migration he was getting both CB & IR ESA.

Upon migration the IR is replaced by UC and the CB ESA converted automatically into New Style ESA. 

The Disability Income Guarantee only applied to IR ESA and is anyway irrelevant to UC Housing Element. It was also nothing to do with DLA. 

Newcad

Thanks we are narrowing things down.

The 'Disability Income Guarantee' in IR ESA was the 'Enhanced Disability Premium" it has been migrated into UC  - It was not DLA (Disability Living Allowance).

You do not need to be claiming Carers Allowance to get UC Carer Element, but your father would need to get PIP again. (Which he should apply for anyway)
If he does get awarded PIP again then you mother can get the UC 'Carer Element' added to their UC claim.
She could also claim the separate Carers Allowance, however the money that you get paid as CA just gets deducted £ for £ from UC payments anyway.
https://www.turn2us.org.uk/get-support/information-for-your-situation/universal-credit-uc/additional-elements-of-universal-credit-uc

It does look to me as though UC should be treating your brother as a non-dependant, and so making a non-dependant deduction for him.

If it turns out that the full rent is covered by UC

That is a slightly disconcerting statement to see at this stage; have your parents even had a UC statement and payment yet?
Or have they only just migrated and all this is speculation? ie. Overthinking things that haven't happened yet?
If they have had one then could you screenshot your parents UC statement and post it here, with any names, address, account numbers, etc. redacted of course.
The bits we would like to see are the "What you're entitled to" and the "What we take off (deductions)", we need to see everything that is listed there - like these which are from my latest statement:

Dave1UK

KxMx said:

If neither of your parents receive PIP, then a non dependant deduction should be made to Housing Element as it was for Housing Benefit.

If dad is now on New Style ESA + UC, that means before migration he was getting both CB & IR ESA.

Upon migration the IR is replaced by UC and the CB ESA converted automatically into New Style ESA. 

The Disability Income Guarantee only applied to IR ESA and is anyway irrelevant to UC Housing Element. It was also nothing to do with DLA. 

Yh that's what I assumed, however doesn't seem to be the case?

Newcad said:

Thanks we are narrowing things down.

The 'Disability Income Guarantee' in IR ESA was the 'Enhanced Disability Premium" it has been migrated into UC  - It was not DLA (Disability Living Allowance).

You do not need to be claiming Carers Allowance to get UC Carer Element, but your father would need to get PIP again. (Which he should apply for anyway)
If he does get awarded PIP again then you mother can get the UC 'Carer Element' added to their UC claim.
She could also claim the separate Carers Allowance, however the money that you get paid as CA just gets deducted £ for £ from UC payments anyway.
https://www.turn2us.org.uk/get-support/information-for-your-situation/universal-credit-uc/additional-elements-of-universal-credit-uc

It does look to me as though UC should be treating your brother as a non-dependant, and so making a non-dependant deduction for him.

If it turns out that the full rent is covered by UC

That is a slightly disconcerting statement to see at this stage; have your parents even had a UC statement and payment yet?
Or have they only just migrated and all this is speculation? ie. Overthinking things that haven't happened yet?
If they have had one then could you screenshot your parents UC statement and post it here, with any names, address, account numbers, etc. redacted of course.
The bits we would like to see are the "What you're entitled to" and the "What we take off (deductions)", we need to see everything that is listed there - like these which are from my latest statement:

Yes they have been paid twice now in total, the first payment included housing element, the second didn't this was as there was a lot of confusion and back and forth between UC, HB and council in general in regards to their tenancy having changed from temporary accommodation into a secured tenancy which no one was made aware off. This change having occurred in 2022 wasn't recorded on the councils system, absolutely no clue why or how that could happen but anyway as of now they have a secured tenancy contract with the council/housing association. Apologies for adding bits here and there and the chronology may not make much sense of this long winded back and forth.

Please see a copy of UC statement:
https://jumpshare.com/s/VhX1aoKeTjEBIi7P2JxQ

Seeing the UC statement again, there is a deduction for my brother -£93.02. This is extremely minimal? He was paying that weekly under HB, but that's monthly.

I have also included a copy of an old ESA claim may be of use not sure:
https://jumpshare.com/s/OAeK46kXurz6Zf9RPpU5

Thanks.

Robbie64

£93.02 per month for a non-dependent's housing contribution is the correct amount. Unlike HB, where the non-dep deduction was based on income of the non-dep, under UC is it one fixed rate per non-dep.