Flexible working request

Natztastic2

Hi,

I wonder if someone could give me some advice as I am getting incorrect answers all over from my manager and HR dept.

I submitted a flexible working request recently on the 11th of September. My manager said she 'didn't want to drag it out' yet my meeting to discuss was scheduled for the 6th of November. A decision meeting was made for the 8th of November when I was told my flexible working could be partially accommodated but far from what I asked.

I was told that I can appeal and have 1 week to do so and they will arrange another meeting with another manager if I choose to appeal. They said that the 2 month time deadline starts again from the 8th of November to look into the appeal. As far as I am aware, they need to handle the whole request including time for appeals and final decision outcome in the original 2 month period, am I right? Because this has now been breached (or at least will be tomorrow as I am not working) what do I do?

One of the sticking points is I have asked to work 1 Sunday a month but they are saying they won't agree to that (even though I've been working this for over a year without problem since my return from Mat Leave) I can opt out of Sundays but nobody is telling me the implications of that correctly. My manager said they will do a rota and the Sundays they would have put me to work on I will just be adjusted so my hours and pay vary each month? But HR said my hours will be permanently reduced by 6 hours each week as if I worl every Sunday.

They have also said if I agree to their "counteroffer" it becomes enforceable from the next rota that they haven't done in advance which would be January, and not effective immediately. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance if someone can help me, just feel like km being screwed over and nobody has the right information.

elsien

it depends on how you and they are viewing your flexible working request, I suppose.

Flexible working can mean keeping  the same number of hours but at different times or on fewer or more days - working a longer day elsewhere for example or doing short days but over more days a week. Or it can mean a reduction in your contracted hours.

From what HR said they are viewing it as a change in your contracted hours so that you no longer work Sundays. 

I’m not sure your manager suggestion is quite right, because unless you do overtime they have to pay you what you’re contracted for so they couldn’t vary  your page each month. 

So when you made your request, how did you suggest it would affect the hours that you do and how would any shortfall in your current contracted hours be made up.
Are you able to work enough hours elsewhere each week to continue to do the hours that you are contracted for if the changes were agreed? 

Brie

According to the gov.uk website there is no statutory requirement to be able to appeal, it depends on what your employer will allow.  So it's their rules from the sounds of it.  So if they say that's 2 months then I would suggest you need to go along with that to get what you're after.  

Flexible working: Appeals - GOV.UK

And I must say it makes sense that it would become effective at the next rota period.  They have to arrange other staff to meet whatever the requirements are for the job and can't just say to one of your co-workers "Natz has applied for different hours so we're changing your hours starting this week". 

And I understood that the option of stop working on Sundays (or another particular day) was basically recognising that certain religions forbid working on that day - so Sundays for Christians, sundown to sundown over Saturdays for Jewish etc.  In the past I believe you had to "prove" you were strict in your religious beliefs but I suspect this has been loosened up now.  And frankly from a rota perspective it is much easier to organise someone to never work a particular day rather than to have them working it less often than their colleagues.

Marcon

Natztastic2 said:

Hi,

I wonder if someone could give me some advice as I am getting incorrect answers all over from my manager and HR dept.

I submitted a flexible working request recently on the 11th of September. My manager said she 'didn't want to drag it out' yet my meeting to discuss was scheduled for the 6th of November. A decision meeting was made for the 8th of November when I was told my flexible working could be partially accommodated but far from what I asked.

I was told that I can appeal and have 1 week to do so and they will arrange another meeting with another manager if I choose to appeal. They said that the 2 month time deadline starts again from the 8th of November to look into the appeal. As far as I am aware, they need to handle the whole request including time for appeals and final decision outcome in the original 2 month period, am I right? Because this has now been breached (or at least will be tomorrow as I am not working) what do I do?

One of the sticking points is I have asked to work 1 Sunday a month but they are saying they won't agree to that (even though I've been working this for over a year without problem since my return from Mat Leave) I can opt out of Sundays but nobody is telling me the implications of that correctly. My manager said they will do a rota and the Sundays they would have put me to work on I will just be adjusted so my hours and pay vary each month? But HR said my hours will be permanently reduced by 6 hours each week as if I worl every Sunday.

They have also said if I agree to their "counteroffer" it becomes enforceable from the next rota that they haven't done in advance which would be January, and not effective immediately. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance if someone can help me, just feel like km being screwed over and nobody has the right information.

A statutory request must be in writing and state that it is a statutory request for flexible working. It must include:

• the date of the request
• the change the employee is requesting to the terms and conditions of their employment in relation to their hours, times or place of work
• the date the employee would like the change to come into effect
• if and when the employee has made a previous request for flexible working to the employer.

Was this actually a statutory request, framed in the required manner, or 'just a request'?

Natztastic2

elsien said:

it depends on how you and they are viewing your flexible working request, I suppose.

Flexible working can mean keeping  the same number of hours but at different times or on fewer or more days - working a longer day elsewhere for example or doing short days but over more days a week. Or it can mean a reduction in your contracted hours.

From what HR said they are viewing it as a change in your contracted hours so that you no longer work Sundays. 

I’m not sure your manager suggestion is quite right, because unless you do overtime they have to pay you what you’re contracted for so they couldn’t vary  your page each month. 

So when you made your request, how did you suggest it would affect the hours that you do and how would any shortfall in your current contracted hours be made up.
Are you able to work enough hours elsewhere each week to continue to do the hours that you are contracted for if the changes were agreed? 

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. I have not asked to change my contracted hours, just my contracted days due to childcare and my husband's job etc. I do 30 hours a week and I have asked for that to be across 4 days, and in a month do 2 Saturday's and 1 Sunday.

They have agreed to me working on Weds, Thurs and Fri as set days due to my childcare, are willing to "trial" me working 2 Saturday's a month, and have declined 1 Sunday a month.

Natztastic2

Brie said:

According to the gov.uk website there is no statutory requirement to be able to appeal, it depends on what your employer will allow.  So it's their rules from the sounds of it.  So if they say that's 2 months then I would suggest you need to go along with that to get what you're after.  

Flexible working: Appeals - GOV.UK

And I must say it makes sense that it would become effective at the next rota period.  They have to arrange other staff to meet whatever the requirements are for the job and can't just say to one of your co-workers "Natz has applied for different hours so we're changing your hours starting this week". 

And I understood that the option of stop working on Sundays (or another particular day) was basically recognising that certain religions forbid working on that day - so Sundays for Christians, sundown to sundown over Saturdays for Jewish etc.  In the past I believe you had to "prove" you were strict in your religious beliefs but I suspect this has been loosened up now.  And frankly from a rota perspective it is much easier to organise someone to never work a particular day rather than to have them working it less often than their colleagues.

Hi, thanks for replying.

The ACAS website states;
If an employee appeals, the employer must make their final decision within 2 months of the date of the original request. This time limit can be extended if the employee and employer agree to extend it. The employer should confirm any extension in writing, for example in a letter or email.

I did also ready that once I agree to new working hours my contract mjst be changed within 28 days but I still don't know where that leaves me from a rota point of view.

Yes, I believe that was the main reason behind it (way back when) and it is only a rule for retail workers. I think it's a no questions asked kind of thing (as in they can't say no, it's the law just to give the notice and then you're no longer required to work the Sundays and can't be discriminated against) it's just the implications of that.

Natztastic2

Marcon said:

Natztastic2 said:

Hi,

I wonder if someone could give me some advice as I am getting incorrect answers all over from my manager and HR dept.

I submitted a flexible working request recently on the 11th of September. My manager said she 'didn't want to drag it out' yet my meeting to discuss was scheduled for the 6th of November. A decision meeting was made for the 8th of November when I was told my flexible working could be partially accommodated but far from what I asked.

I was told that I can appeal and have 1 week to do so and they will arrange another meeting with another manager if I choose to appeal. They said that the 2 month time deadline starts again from the 8th of November to look into the appeal. As far as I am aware, they need to handle the whole request including time for appeals and final decision outcome in the original 2 month period, am I right? Because this has now been breached (or at least will be tomorrow as I am not working) what do I do?

One of the sticking points is I have asked to work 1 Sunday a month but they are saying they won't agree to that (even though I've been working this for over a year without problem since my return from Mat Leave) I can opt out of Sundays but nobody is telling me the implications of that correctly. My manager said they will do a rota and the Sundays they would have put me to work on I will just be adjusted so my hours and pay vary each month? But HR said my hours will be permanently reduced by 6 hours each week as if I worl every Sunday.

They have also said if I agree to their "counteroffer" it becomes enforceable from the next rota that they haven't done in advance which would be January, and not effective immediately. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance if someone can help me, just feel like km being screwed over and nobody has the right information.

A statutory request must be in writing and state that it is a statutory request for flexible working. It must include:

• the date of the request
• the change the employee is requesting to the terms and conditions of their employment in relation to their hours, times or place of work
• the date the employee would like the change to come into effect
• if and when the employee has made a previous request for flexible working to the employer.

Was this actually a statutory request, framed in the required manner, or 'just a request'?

Hi,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes very much a formal request, I used the template on the gov.uk website and sent as a formal letter.

We tried to come to an "informal agreement" but my manager declined. Irony is she was the one who changed our original "informal agreement" and all I am asking for is to work exactly what I have been working since I came back from Maternity leave last August.

LightFlare

You need to bear in mind that it is a request.

The company are free to reject for any reason (except for protected characteristics)

The issue they may have with your request is that you say you do 30hrs a week - so 0.8wte and have requested 1 Sunday a month.
How many Sundays a month do 1.0 wte employees do and is your request a pro rata of that. ?

At the end of the day, they want/need to open on Sundays and someone has to work. One less contracted to do so means someone else has to pick up the “slack”.

Flexible working requests generally are more likely to succeed if they focus on any benefit (or lack of detriment) for the employer

IF refused - you may find there is an exclusion period during which you cannot submit again.

Undervalued

Natztastic2 said:

Brie said:

According to the gov.uk website there is no statutory requirement to be able to appeal, it depends on what your employer will allow.  So it's their rules from the sounds of it.  So if they say that's 2 months then I would suggest you need to go along with that to get what you're after.  

Flexible working: Appeals - GOV.UK

And I must say it makes sense that it would become effective at the next rota period.  They have to arrange other staff to meet whatever the requirements are for the job and can't just say to one of your co-workers "Natz has applied for different hours so we're changing your hours starting this week". 

And I understood that the option of stop working on Sundays (or another particular day) was basically recognising that certain religions forbid working on that day - so Sundays for Christians, sundown to sundown over Saturdays for Jewish etc.  In the past I believe you had to "prove" you were strict in your religious beliefs but I suspect this has been loosened up now.  And frankly from a rota perspective it is much easier to organise someone to never work a particular day rather than to have them working it less often than their colleagues.

Hi, thanks for replying.

The ACAS website states;
If an employee appeals, the employer must make their final decision within 2 months of the date of the original request. This time limit can be extended if the employee and employer agree to extend it. The employer should confirm any extension in writing, for example in a letter or email.

I did also ready that once I agree to new working hours my contract mjst be changed within 28 days but I still don't know where that leaves me from a rota point of view.

Yes, I believe that was the main reason behind it (way back when) and it is only a rule for retail workers. I think it's a no questions asked kind of thing (as in they can't say no, it's the law just to give the notice and then you're no longer required to work the Sundays and can't be discriminated against) it's just the implications of that.

The ACAS website says lots of things, not all of them correct. Sometimes it is far from clear if what they are referring to is actually the law or just their guidance as to good practice.

Also, for example to say "must be changed within 28 days...." is fairly meaningless unless there is any effective redress available it it doesn't happen.

Keep in mind that, in the real world, it is relatively easy for an employer to find "business reasons" to turn down a flexible working request if they have a mind to do so and difficult to effectively challenge. Yes, under some circumstances it can be done but it is not easy unless the employer is on side.

Finally, many employers to their credit go far further in accommodating flexible working, family friendly policies, emergency carers' leave, adjustments for disabled etc than the law actually requires. That's great but it sometimes gives the impression that employee's rights in these areas are far stronger than is actually the case.

Unless your bottom line is that you will be leaving unless you get the flexibility you want tread carefully as you will still be working there.

Grumpy_chap

Natztastic2 said:

I do 30 hours a week and I have asked for that to be across 4 days, and in a month do 2 Saturday's and 1 Sunday.

They have agreed to me working on Weds, Thurs and Fri as set days due to my childcare, are willing to "trial" me working 2 Saturday's a month, and have declined 1 Sunday a month.

Ultimately, the employer's decision is the employer's decision.

However, no one in this thread can comment as to reasonableness given all we have to consider is what you have requested to do.
How does that vary from what you currently do in practice?
And what you should currently do according to the rules?

Then, how does that compare to what others do?
What is the impact on others if your request is agreed to?
Does it risk setting a precedent?

elsien

Natztastic2 said:

elsien said:

it depends on how you and they are viewing your flexible working request, I suppose.

Flexible working can mean keeping  the same number of hours but at different times or on fewer or more days - working a longer day elsewhere for example or doing short days but over more days a week. Or it can mean a reduction in your contracted hours.

From what HR said they are viewing it as a change in your contracted hours so that you no longer work Sundays. 

I’m not sure your manager suggestion is quite right, because unless you do overtime they have to pay you what you’re contracted for so they couldn’t vary  your page each month. 

So when you made your request, how did you suggest it would affect the hours that you do and how would any shortfall in your current contracted hours be made up.
Are you able to work enough hours elsewhere each week to continue to do the hours that you are contracted for if the changes were agreed? 

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. I have not asked to change my contracted hours, just my contracted days due to childcare and my husband's job etc. I do 30 hours a week and I have asked for that to be across 4 days, and in a month do 2 Saturday's and 1 Sunday.

They have agreed to me working on Weds, Thurs and Fri as set days due to my childcare, are willing to "trial" me working 2 Saturday's a month, and have declined 1 Sunday a month.

So if they are saying no to the Sundays for example and there is nowhere else to make up those hours then flexible working  will require you to drop your contracted hours? 

Perhaps that is the compromise between you and your employer that you need to make.