Had Drop Kerb done without planning permission

Section62

MeadowsVale said:

Section62 said:

MeadowsVale said:

I had my kerb dropped unofficially a few years ago when I had my back garden redone.

100+ year old property and in the original paper deeds it actually states that I own the front and back footpath outside my property and upto the centre of the back street. I would like to see what the council would do in court.

Alas nothing has ever come of it.

They probably wouldn't bother with court, they'd just reinstate the kerb and if you kept driving over it then put a bollard in the way.  They might send you the bill for the work.  The legality of them blocking the access might be questionable (if you don't live in London), but unless you've got deep pockets to apply for a judicial review, there's not much you can do about it.

If the kerb dropping did go to court - probably for one of the 'unlawful interference' offences - then legally you wouldn't have much of a defence.  The ownership status of the land is irrelevant.  If the back street is highway then highway law applies to it, regardless of who owns the land.  It is common for the adjacent landowners to own the freehold of land up to the centre of the highway - more so in rural areas, but also in towns and cities where the road has been there long enough, or if the highway authority didn't take ownership of the land when the road was adopted.

Highway rights (and law) exist and apply over and above ownership of the land.  If your defence was that you owned the land and were therefore entitled to drop the kerb because it was on your land then the magistrate would likely roll their eyes and place you in the 'Freeman on the land' category of defendant.

Lucky the council hasn't done anything yet.

There's no proof how long it's been there, it's all weathered in now. Could have been there 50 years like some of the others on the street which I doubt the council would still have records for.

We're talking about a back street where loads of properties already have garages built on their property and the footpath is the width of one old school paving slab. It's not the front on a busy road.

...

Highway authorities have something called the 'special defence', which protects them from liability where they can show they took reasonable steps to check the condition of highways and maintain them.  So competent councils have a programme of periodic inspection - each road in their network will be inspected on a regular basis.  And records of the inspection kept, in case of future claims.

Obviously I've got no idea what record collection/retention policy your local council has, but a lot of highway authorities will have their inspectors take lots of pictures (or use video) and dump the pictures/video onto server storage... just in case someone decides to make a claim for something.  So there's a reasonable chance your local highway authority will have its own archive of images/video of your back street - in addition to commercially available sources like Streetview - which it could (if it really felt the need) go back and check to see when something first appeared.

I'm not saying your council will do that, just that it would be unfortunate if people read this thread and went away with the notion that their own council would have no clue when their own crossover was installed, if they opted to have it done unlawfully.

Also worth noting that while weathered tarmac looks like weathered tarmac to the typical layperson, there are in fact many different types of tarmac-like materials.  Trends in what material is best vary over time and new materials get developed. The composition of the binder and chemical changes in it can also give clues as to age.  Again, I'm not suggesting the council would do it in your case, but if things developed to the point they wanted 'proof' that the crossover hadn't been there 50 years then it is probable that a core sample would be taken and analysed to estimate the age of the construction.  (Coring isn't some kind of crazy sci-fi thing, it is part of the routine monitoring of streetworks if there is an issue with reinstatement and the utility is denying liability).  A lab won't be able to tell which day of the week it was laid, but would likely be able to say less than 5, 10, 20 years etc.

The periodic inspections are also why I'd disagree with WIAWSNB about the likely way the council might find out about the OP's crossover.  If the inspector for that area is one of the old-school types with a good memory then it might be them who thinks 'that wasn't here last time', or as I mentioned earlier in the thread it might be a council which adds locations of refused crossovers to a periodic inspection list for a proactive check.

Bottom line, still probably best for the OP to wait and see what happens next.

Eldi_Dos

Section62 said:

MeadowsVale said:

Section62 said:

MeadowsVale said:

I had my kerb dropped unofficially a few years ago when I had my back garden redone.

100+ year old property and in the original paper deeds it actually states that I own the front and back footpath outside my property and upto the centre of the back street. I would like to see what the council would do in court.

Alas nothing has ever come of it.

They probably wouldn't bother with court, they'd just reinstate the kerb and if you kept driving over it then put a bollard in the way.  They might send you the bill for the work.  The legality of them blocking the access might be questionable (if you don't live in London), but unless you've got deep pockets to apply for a judicial review, there's not much you can do about it.

If the kerb dropping did go to court - probably for one of the 'unlawful interference' offences - then legally you wouldn't have much of a defence.  The ownership status of the land is irrelevant.  If the back street is highway then highway law applies to it, regardless of who owns the land.  It is common for the adjacent landowners to own the freehold of land up to the centre of the highway - more so in rural areas, but also in towns and cities where the road has been there long enough, or if the highway authority didn't take ownership of the land when the road was adopted.

Highway rights (and law) exist and apply over and above ownership of the land.  If your defence was that you owned the land and were therefore entitled to drop the kerb because it was on your land then the magistrate would likely roll their eyes and place you in the 'Freeman on the land' category of defendant.

Lucky the council hasn't done anything yet.

There's no proof how long it's been there, it's all weathered in now. Could have been there 50 years like some of the others on the street which I doubt the council would still have records for.

We're talking about a back street where loads of properties already have garages built on their property and the footpath is the width of one old school paving slab. It's not the front on a busy road.

...

I'm not saying your council will do that, just that it would be unfortunate if people read this thread and went away with the notion that their own council would have no clue when their own crossover was installed, if they opted to have it done unlawfully.

Also worth noting that while weathered tarmac looks like weathered tarmac to the typical layperson, there are in fact many different types of tarmac-like materials.  Trends in what material is best vary over time and new materials get developed. The composition of the binder and chemical changes in it can also give clues as to age.  Again, I'm not suggesting the council would do it in your case, but if things developed to the point they wanted 'proof' that the crossover hadn't been there 50 years then it is probable that a core sample would be taken and analysed to estimate the age of the construction.  (Coring isn't some kind of crazy sci-fi thing, it is part of the routine monitoring of streetworks if there is an issue with reinstatement and the utility is denying liability).  A lab won't be able to tell which day of the week it was laid, but would likely be able to say less than 5, 10, 20 years etc.

Things where a bit quiet in our department once and I got tasked (lumbered) with taking core samples for our civils department, I must say it was enjoyable work, pick the paperwork and consumables up from the office on Monday morning, spend the rest of the week traveling about taking the samples an then on Friday afternoon drop that weeks cores off at the office / unit of the company who checked the cores.

I seemed to me while I was unloading cores that they knew by sight  what was acceptable, where as I just went by the thickness of the Tar in the core.

It was good work, nice pleasent four months in the summer and only saw gaffers on a Monday morning, what's not to like.

WIAWSNB

Section62 said:

Highway authorities have something called the 'special defence', which protects them from liability where they can show they took reasonable steps to check the condition of highways and maintain them.  So competent councils have a programme of periodic inspection - each road in their network will be inspected on a regular basis.  And records of the inspection kept, in case of future claims.

Obviously I've got no idea what record collection/retention policy your local council has, but a lot of highway authorities will have their inspectors take lots of pictures (or use video) and dump the pictures/video onto server storage... just in case someone decides to make a claim for something.  So there's a reasonable chance your local highway authority will have its own archive of images/video of your back street - in addition to commercially available sources like Streetview - which it could (if it really felt the need) go back and check to see when something first appeared.

I'm not saying your council will do that, just that it would be unfortunate if people read this thread and went away with the notion that their own council would have no clue when their own crossover was installed, if they opted to have it done unlawfully.

Also worth noting that while weathered tarmac looks like weathered tarmac to the typical layperson, there are in fact many different types of tarmac-like materials.  Trends in what material is best vary over time and new materials get developed. The composition of the binder and chemical changes in it can also give clues as to age.  Again, I'm not suggesting the council would do it in your case, but if things developed to the point they wanted 'proof' that the crossover hadn't been there 50 years then it is probable that a core sample would be taken and analysed to estimate the age of the construction.  (Coring isn't some kind of crazy sci-fi thing, it is part of the routine monitoring of streetworks if there is an issue with reinstatement and the utility is denying liability).  A lab won't be able to tell which day of the week it was laid, but would likely be able to say less than 5, 10, 20 years etc.

The periodic inspections are also why I'd disagree with WIAWSNB about the likely way the council might find out about the OP's crossover.  If the inspector for that area is one of the old-school types with a good memory then it might be them who thinks 'that wasn't here last time', or as I mentioned earlier in the thread it might be a council which adds locations of refused crossovers to a periodic inspection list for a proactive check.

Bottom line, still probably best for the OP to wait and see what happens next.

Interesting. My take from this is that you agree with me... :-)

Albermarle

A family member was buying a house, where the dropped kerb was obviously 'home made' .
Whilst conveyancing was ongoing, the council decided to relay the pavements/kerbs ( just part of an ongoing upgrade of local roads/pavements)
The supervisor had full records of who had permission for a dropped kerb, and a full kerb was reinstated at the property. Apparently you can not apply for a dropped kerb until at least two years after any such refurbishment.
So the house now has an inaccessible driveway.

Eldi_Dos

Albermarle said:

A family member was buying a house, where the dropped kerb was obviously 'home made' .
Whilst conveyancing was ongoing, the council decided to relay the pavements/kerbs ( just part of an ongoing upgrade of local roads/pavements)
The supervisor had full records of who had permission for a dropped kerb, and a full kerb was reinstated at the property. Apparently you can not apply for a dropped kerb until at least two years after any such refurbishment.
So the house now has an inaccessible driveway.

I would say that a two year embargo is quite common when a road is re-laid, only emergency works can be carried out. Did not realise it applied to pavements as well.

Albermarle

Eldi_Dos said:

Albermarle said:

A family member was buying a house, where the dropped kerb was obviously 'home made' .
Whilst conveyancing was ongoing, the council decided to relay the pavements/kerbs ( just part of an ongoing upgrade of local roads/pavements)
The supervisor had full records of who had permission for a dropped kerb, and a full kerb was reinstated at the property. Apparently you can not apply for a dropped kerb until at least two years after any such refurbishment.
So the house now has an inaccessible driveway.

I would say that a two year embargo is quite common when a road is re-laid, only emergency works can be carried out. Did not realise it applied to pavements as well.

When they moved in they had cable broadband connected. There was a bit of a stand off between the Virgin installers and the pavement layers who were still in the area. It turned out that there was a two year restriction, but Virgin had got permission before the official start date, due to some admin delays at the council.
So they were lucky with that, but unlucky with the dropped kerb. 

Section62

Eldi_Dos said:

Albermarle said:

A family member was buying a house, where the dropped kerb was obviously 'home made' .
Whilst conveyancing was ongoing, the council decided to relay the pavements/kerbs ( just part of an ongoing upgrade of local roads/pavements)
The supervisor had full records of who had permission for a dropped kerb, and a full kerb was reinstated at the property. Apparently you can not apply for a dropped kerb until at least two years after any such refurbishment.
So the house now has an inaccessible driveway.

I would say that a two year embargo is quite common when a road is re-laid, only emergency works can be carried out. Did not realise it applied to pavements as well.

The two-year rule for applying for a dropped kerb sounds like something the council has made up.

The restriction is in S58 of the New Roads and Street Works Act.  It applies to the highway, so would include footways or cycleways if they have been resurfaced or reconstructed.  The time period used to be a year, but has been amended to the 'prescribed period' which varies by circumstance.

There are exemptions for emergency work, and also for work such as providing a new connection, provided all the relevant criteria are met.

But highway authorities aren't prohibited from carrying out highway work (as distinct from 'streetworks') that may be necessary during the prescribed period. So they could install a dropped kerb and crossover if they wanted to.

Eldi_Dos

Section62 said:

Eldi_Dos said:

Albermarle said:

A family member was buying a house, where the dropped kerb was obviously 'home made' .
Whilst conveyancing was ongoing, the council decided to relay the pavements/kerbs ( just part of an ongoing upgrade of local roads/pavements)
The supervisor had full records of who had permission for a dropped kerb, and a full kerb was reinstated at the property. Apparently you can not apply for a dropped kerb until at least two years after any such refurbishment.
So the house now has an inaccessible driveway.

I would say that a two year embargo is quite common when a road is re-laid, only emergency works can be carried out. Did not realise it applied to pavements as well.

There are exemptions for emergency work, and also for work such as providing a new connection, provided all the relevant criteria are met.

 

In my very limited experience if new road crossing was required to provide a new service during the embargo period the expectation was that thrust boring would be used or your application went to the back of the queue.

MeadowsVale

Albermarle said:

A family member was buying a house, where the dropped kerb was obviously 'home made' .
Whilst conveyancing was ongoing, the council decided to relay the pavements/kerbs ( just part of an ongoing upgrade of local roads/pavements)
The supervisor had full records of who had permission for a dropped kerb, and a full kerb was reinstated at the property. Apparently you can not apply for a dropped kerb until at least two years after any such refurbishment.
So the house now has an inaccessible driveway.

There is nothing to say my kerb was obviously home made as it was installed by very competent ground workers who did my whole drive. Only thing missing was the council permit.  

Section62

MeadowsVale said:

Albermarle said:

A family member was buying a house, where the dropped kerb was obviously 'home made' .
Whilst conveyancing was ongoing, the council decided to relay the pavements/kerbs ( just part of an ongoing upgrade of local roads/pavements)
The supervisor had full records of who had permission for a dropped kerb, and a full kerb was reinstated at the property. Apparently you can not apply for a dropped kerb until at least two years after any such refurbishment.
So the house now has an inaccessible driveway.

There is nothing to say my kerb was obviously home made as it was installed by very competent ground workers who did my whole drive. Only thing missing was the council permit.  

If they really were 'very competent' they wouldn't have done the work without the highway authority's consent.  Competent contractors know why they need to have consent to work in the highway and wouldn't take the risk of doing anything unlawful.

For example, a competent contractor would contact all utilities and infrastructure providers to check for buried equipment before excavating in a road/footway.  Then carry out on-site checks before and during digging.  Did your contractors do any of this?  Possibly not, as the highway authority itself is one of the infrastructure providers who should be asked about what they've got lurking below the surface.  If a permitting system is in place in your area then the permit number/system is how information about plant (and other works) would be shared between parties.  No permit = probably no idea what might be there.

Ground workers can do a job which looks very nice on the surface, but that doesn't mean they are competent.

You've done what you've done, and that was your choice.  The important point here is people don't go away thinking that was a good moneysaving way of doing things.  You can end up with a big bill for the highway authority to put things back in order, and your ownership of the freehold land offers zero protection against that risk.