Firmware update breaks Denon amplifier

WiltsIT

We have a Denon amplifier for streaming music that has worked perfectly for the last ~4 years. However a recent firmware update from Denon causes the sound to keep cutting out after a couple of seconds. Denon tech support suggested a factory reset that restores the original ‘as shipped’ firmware and that does fix it. However a few hours later Denon forces the firmware update again and breaks it. Have gone through this cycle a few times now always with the same result.

Denon say there is no way to stop the firmware update being forced on the device if it is connected to the internet; and it’s not much use if it can’t be online for streaming! Denon have offered a 25% discount to buy a replacement product but a) there is nothing in their current range that is suitable and b) I don’t see why I should be incurring costs when the manufacturer is forcing an update that breaks a perfectly good and working product.

Where do I stand legally as this appears to be a grey area?

It is out of warranty but still of an age I could reasonably expect it still to be working. I presume the retailer has no liability since the product works fine using the firmware they sold it with. I have no direct contract with the manufacturer…

MattMattMattUK

WiltsIT said:

We have a Denon amplifier for streaming music that has worked perfectly for the last ~4 years. However a recent firmware update from Denon causes the sound to keep cutting out after a couple of seconds. Denon tech support suggested a factory reset that restores the original ‘as shipped’ firmware and that does fix it. However a few hours later Denon forces the firmware update again and breaks it. Have gone through this cycle a few times now always with the same result.

Denon say there is no way to stop the firmware update being forced on the device if it is connected to the internet; and it’s not much use if it can’t be online for streaming! Denon have offered a 25% discount to buy a replacement product but a) there is nothing in their current range that is suitable and b) I don’t see why I should be incurring costs when the manufacturer is forcing an update that breaks a perfectly good and working product.

Where do I stand legally as this appears to be a grey area?

It is out of warranty but still of an age I could reasonably expect it still to be working. I presume the retailer has no liability since the product works fine using the firmware they sold it with. I have no direct contract with the manufacturer…

A very difficult one. You have no consumer rights, they would be with the business you purchased it from but they have sold you a fully functional piece of equipment. You have no rights against Denon either as you are not their customer. Lunatic might be able to advise if there are any specifics which could help you.

Denon have done this before, back in 2023, they took about a month to fix it with a later firmware update, so I suspect that will be your best/only option. It does appear it only happens when streaming high quality audio via the HEOS app and can be dealt with in the short term by streaming via other means or by dropping the quality (I do not have the required kit to be able to do that). Also in theory if you can see the IP that the amp accesses the update from you could block that IP on your router once you had done the factory reset which would block it doing further updates after, but that might not be possible on your router and is a bodge of a technical solution. 

WiltsIT

Thanks for the reply, that’s also my understanding in terms of consumer rights; although would like to think Denon have a moral commitment even if there isn’t a legal one!!!

It is a HEOS device (their top model at the time), however the sound cutout occurs on all inputs—even locally-connected sources—not just when streaming. A switch to a different input and then back again will restore the sound briefly but then it cuts out again a few seconds later.

Blocking access to Denon’s firmware servers might be possible (although a major cludge) and will impact on HEOS functionality if they use same servers/IP addresses for streaming via HEOS or HEOS app account access.

flaneurs_lobster

Does look like any fix for this would be at Denon's gift. You can't be the only owner with this issue.

Are there any Social Media channels or user community fora where their products are discussed. Might be the place to apply a bit of moral pressure.

Entirely unconnected (so to speak), did I read that Samsung now owns Denon and a load of other mid-to-high-end AV brands?

A_Geordie

You seem to be out of luck from a contractual perspective but there may be a valid argument under the Torts (Interference with Goods) Act 1977. A tort is a civil wrong that doesn't require the need for a contract i.e. personal injury. 

TIGA has multiple types of claims but I think in your case, trespass to goods or negligence would be the appropriate claims to be made. Trespass to goods requires a direct and intentional interference with your goods so much so that the act has cause you to suffer loss or damage to the goods.

A potentially alternative claim is conversion where Denon has permanently deprived you of the use of those goods. Conversion would apply in cases where goods have been destroyed or stolen or something to that effect but there's no reason that it couldn't apply here. Given that it's a firmware issue, I think in order for there to be a intentional act to amount to a conversion, you would need Denon to confirm that they are not going to remedy the problem or issue some kind of fix or update that allows you to control how or when you update the firmware.

The crucial question is, what remedy are you seeking to achieve?

mikb

flaneurs_lobster said:

Are there any Social Media channels or user community fora where their products are discussed. Might be the place to apply a bit of moral pressure.

Certainly (although American) there are YouTubers like Louis Rossmann who like to highlight and call out companies that do this sort of thing. 

Under Right to Repair and Right to Ownership. Companies that remote-brick, and remote-remove functionality, or convert your "ownership" of the hardware into an "ongoing subscription for the right to continue using what you already bought and paid for" are regular topics.

https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup

You could even start a page on the issue here ...

https://consumerrights.wiki/w/Main_Page

Already catching flak over changes ...

https://consumerrights.wiki/w/Denon_HEOS_Speakers

Jumblebumble

WiltsIT said:

We have a Denon amplifier for streaming music that has worked perfectly for the last ~4 years. However a recent firmware update from Denon causes the sound to keep cutting out after a couple of seconds. Denon tech support suggested a factory reset that restores the original ‘as shipped’ firmware and that does fix it. However a few hours later Denon forces the firmware update again and breaks it. Have gone through this cycle a few times now always with the same result.

Denon say there is no way to stop the firmware update being forced on the device if it is connected to the internet; and it’s not much use if it can’t be online for streaming! Denon have offered a 25% discount to buy a replacement product but a) there is nothing in their current range that is suitable and b) I don’t see why I should be incurring costs when the manufacturer is forcing an update that breaks a perfectly good and working product.

Where do I stand legally as this appears to be a grey area?

It is out of warranty but still of an age I could reasonably expect it still to be working. I presume the retailer has no liability since the product works fine using the firmware they sold it with. I have no direct contract with the manufacturer…

One pragmatic solution would be to configure a router's firewall to block the update call home IP address.

Chief_of_Staffy

Jumblebumble said:

WiltsIT said:

We have a Denon amplifier for streaming music that has worked perfectly for the last ~4 years. However a recent firmware update from Denon causes the sound to keep cutting out after a couple of seconds. Denon tech support suggested a factory reset that restores the original ‘as shipped’ firmware and that does fix it. However a few hours later Denon forces the firmware update again and breaks it. Have gone through this cycle a few times now always with the same result.

Denon say there is no way to stop the firmware update being forced on the device if it is connected to the internet; and it’s not much use if it can’t be online for streaming! Denon have offered a 25% discount to buy a replacement product but a) there is nothing in their current range that is suitable and b) I don’t see why I should be incurring costs when the manufacturer is forcing an update that breaks a perfectly good and working product.

Where do I stand legally as this appears to be a grey area?

It is out of warranty but still of an age I could reasonably expect it still to be working. I presume the retailer has no liability since the product works fine using the firmware they sold it with. I have no direct contract with the manufacturer…

One pragmatic solution would be to configure a router's firewall to block the update call home IP address.

That's what I was thinking. There's probably an IP range, though, and the chances of support knowing what they are is close to zero. So it's best to monitor the connection if the router allows.

In addition, whilst I've no experience of amps connecting to the internet (my amps are 29 and 31 years old), I did think that all modern devices had auto-update toggles.

born_again

Jumblebumble said:

WiltsIT said:

We have a Denon amplifier for streaming music that has worked perfectly for the last ~4 years. However a recent firmware update from Denon causes the sound to keep cutting out after a couple of seconds. Denon tech support suggested a factory reset that restores the original ‘as shipped’ firmware and that does fix it. However a few hours later Denon forces the firmware update again and breaks it. Have gone through this cycle a few times now always with the same result.

Denon say there is no way to stop the firmware update being forced on the device if it is connected to the internet; and it’s not much use if it can’t be online for streaming! Denon have offered a 25% discount to buy a replacement product but a) there is nothing in their current range that is suitable and b) I don’t see why I should be incurring costs when the manufacturer is forcing an update that breaks a perfectly good and working product.

Where do I stand legally as this appears to be a grey area?

It is out of warranty but still of an age I could reasonably expect it still to be working. I presume the retailer has no liability since the product works fine using the firmware they sold it with. I have no direct contract with the manufacturer…

One pragmatic solution would be to configure a router's firewall to block the update call home IP address.

Or the other way. Remove any WiFi or hard wire connection to Amp.

MattMattMattUK

born_again said:

Jumblebumble said:

WiltsIT said:

We have a Denon amplifier for streaming music that has worked perfectly for the last ~4 years. However a recent firmware update from Denon causes the sound to keep cutting out after a couple of seconds. Denon tech support suggested a factory reset that restores the original ‘as shipped’ firmware and that does fix it. However a few hours later Denon forces the firmware update again and breaks it. Have gone through this cycle a few times now always with the same result.

Denon say there is no way to stop the firmware update being forced on the device if it is connected to the internet; and it’s not much use if it can’t be online for streaming! Denon have offered a 25% discount to buy a replacement product but a) there is nothing in their current range that is suitable and b) I don’t see why I should be incurring costs when the manufacturer is forcing an update that breaks a perfectly good and working product.

Where do I stand legally as this appears to be a grey area?

It is out of warranty but still of an age I could reasonably expect it still to be working. I presume the retailer has no liability since the product works fine using the firmware they sold it with. I have no direct contract with the manufacturer…

One pragmatic solution would be to configure a router's firewall to block the update call home IP address.

Or the other way. Remove any WiFi or hard wire connection to Amp.

Then it will be unable to stream, so whilst it might solve the problem would unfortunately makes the device far less functional. 

WiltsIT

The amp can ONLY be controlled by the HEOS app, it has no physical controls (other than a volume knob); therefore it has to be connected to local network in order to operate it.

There is no means to toggle the firmware autoupdate on/off (as confirmed by Denon).

I haven’t investigated whether the IP address(es) used for the update are the same as the ones used for authentication to allow streaming services to work.

However my purpose for posting on this forum wasn’t to seek technical support to solve the issue (I can do that myself, but thanks for the suggestions); it was purely to see if I have any rights of redress against Denon.