Swimming lesson provider didn't process cancellation, now chasing late fees?

GavHTFC

Hi all,

If it matters, this is in England.

I was emailed by my child's swimming lesson provider back in July, as he hadn't attended in a while (very ill health, super rare, even GOSH aren't sure what it is yet - fun!), asking whether we wanted to keep his place or cancel the membership. A couple of weeks later, still In July, I replied saying to cancel, received the usual auto-response and believed that to be that.

August's payment was taken and I had no reason to believe anything was amiss, given the 30-day notice period.

September's payment was taken. Okay, now something's amiss.

I noticed that the auto-response to my July email, that says "expect a response in due course", was never actually followed up with a response. So I followed up myself, asking for the cancellation to be processed and for the refund. Same auto-response, no actual response, so I cancelled the DD a few days later.

This kicked them into action and they closed the account "with immediate effect", which is all fine, but there's still the matter of September's refund.

After a bit of back-and-forth, their stance was that "you didn't follow the cancellation process properly". Turns out they're going to get funny over me sending that cancellation to swimming@them.com (which, remember, was in reply to their email from that address, specifically inviting cancellation or continuation) rather than the "Ts & Cs" way, of sending it to contact@them.com.

My stance is:

• They emailed me
• I replied in good faith
• I received an auto-response saying to expect an actual response
• (After further digging, I've received actual responses from that same address - after receiving the same auto-response - as recently as May)
• My reply even asked "Would you need anything further from me in order to do that, or will this email suffice?" and received no further instructions
• All of the above, to me, means that it was entirely reasonable to expect my cancellation to be processed in a timely manner.

Even the manager, after an "investigation" where they had me send screenshots of all the relevant emails, also decided to keep playing silly buggers. They've even straight up admitted things like "swimming@them.com isn't manned all of the time" - to which I asked why it's being used for communications and why it delivers auto-responses saying to expect a reply. The only answer they could manage to that was "we've passed on your feedback". And it appears to still be my problem!

As they weren't going to refund, I had my bank do it instead.

Well, if that didn't kick off the whole "late fees and debt collection" process! In response I've sent them a list of everything they've done wrong that's led to this situation arising in the first place (which is just about everything that you possibly could do wrong), along with the usual GDPR warning if they do decide to pass on the details of an account, that should already be closed, to a 3rd-party.

Where we are now

As of yesterday, after I'd started drafting this post, they've offered "as a gesture of goodwill" to waive the September payment, and reduce the "indemnity claim fee" (which they'd called a late fee only 2 days ago) to £25 rather than £45. Part of me is tempted to take that and just be done with it all - it's a lot of mucking about over not a huge amount of money to me, even though it could well be to someone else. At the same time, that puts us almost back in the position of September's payment (£27) having been made when it shouldn't.

As much as I believe my case to be rock-solid - and please, do tell me if you feel otherwise - is it all worth it for the sake of £25/£27?

Aylesbury_Duck

What's the "indemnity claim fee" supposedly for?  It seems a strange descriptor.

If you have the time and the inclination, pursue the additional £25 but I suppose you might find that if you do, they remove the reduction, meaning you'd owe them £45 instead.  The likelihood of them pursuing £25 or £45 would seem slim if you didn't pay.

I'm not convinced your case is rock-solid, because technically you didn't cancel in accordance with the Ts and Cs.  Morally, you're absolutely on solid ground, but technically not.

eskbanker

Did the July email state, or imply, that cancellation could be invoked simply by replying to the email, rather than requiring the standard defined process to be followed?

born_again

Aylesbury_Duck said:

What's the "indemnity claim fee" supposedly for?  It seems a strange descriptor.

If you have the time and the inclination, pursue the additional £25 but I suppose you might find that if you do, they remove the reduction, meaning you'd owe them £45 instead.  The likelihood of them pursuing £25 or £45 would seem slim if you didn't pay.

I'm not convinced your case is rock-solid, because technically you didn't cancel in accordance with the Ts and Cs.  Morally, you're absolutely on solid ground, but technically not.

Op cancelled DD in July.
So company will be charging for a bounced DD. 👍
But OP also said payment taken in August.
So something does not add up.

Sadly reply in good faith, misses the point that OP should have checked the T/C for the correct cancelation process ( I get they had more on their mind) & co need to make it clear that the email address used is not monitored.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

To clarify OP, you had an instructor but you wasn't getting the lessons due to the instructor's poor health? 

If so, assuming no alterative was provided, sounds like they wasn't providing the service, if so tell them you cancelled because they breached the contract, if they want any money they'll have to go via small claims for it and if you don't see Sep refunded you'll recall the payment via the bank. 

I'd be asking for August back as well as payments for sessions that were missed.

born_again

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

To clarify OP, you had an instructor but you wasn't getting the lessons due to the instructor's poor health? 

If so, assuming no alterative was provided, sounds like they wasn't providing the service, if so tell them you cancelled because they breached the contract, if they want any money they'll have to go via small claims for it and if you don't see Sep refunded you'll recall the payment via the bank. 

I'd be asking for August back as well as payments for sessions that were missed.

Think it is OP child that is ill.

as he hadn't attended in a while (very ill health, super rare, 

tedted

her child  was ill not the instructor

GavHTFC

Aylesbury_Duck said:

What's the "indemnity claim fee" supposedly for?  It seems a strange descriptor.

Agreed! It was originally called a late fee when the payment got reversed, and now is suddenly an "indemnity claim fee"?

If you have the time and the inclination, pursue the additional £25 but I suppose you might find that if you do, they remove the reduction, meaning you'd owe them £45 instead.  The likelihood of them pursuing £25 or £45 would seem slim if you didn't pay.

I'm not convinced your case is rock-solid, because technically you didn't cancel in accordance with the Ts and Cs.  Morally, you're absolutely on solid ground, but technically not.

I appreciate that, thank you. This whole time I'm trying to come at this from what I believe the result would be if it were to come to a county court. So, yes, the Ts and Cs that were agreed to last year before all this happened, do say to cancel by emailing the contact@ address. My stance is that actively inviting a confirmation of either cancellation or continuation to a different address, still under their domain, part of their systems, manned by their staff (or not, as it turns out!) negates that requirement. I dare argue that applies on a technical level as well as just a moral level.

When it comes to which is the more reasonable course of action:

• "I was asked directly if I want to cancel and replied yes, and was promised a response that never came"
• "We invited cancellation to an address that isn't the 'correct' one, promised a reply when we received that cancellation, then did absolutely nothing with it"

I'd say there's only one clear outcome!

Had I been cancelling out of the blue and sent it to the wrong place, or if I'd received a reply along the lines of "very well, please can you send an email to this other address" and not actioned it, then I'd have said "oh, !!!!!!", and asked if they'd be willing to waive the next month's payment instead, chalking it all up to experience.

eskbanker said:

Did the July email state, or imply, that cancellation could be invoked simply by replying to the email, rather than requiring the standard defined process to be followed?

To give you the exact wording used: "During routine attendance checks, it has been identified that your ******* has not been attending the above sessions for some time now. Please can you let us know if you would like to continue with the lessons or not, or if we could do anything to help your child to return to the lessons?"

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

born_again said:

Think it is OP child that is ill.

as he hadn't attended in a while (very ill health, super rare, 

Oh, if that's case ignore me OP. 

GavHTFC

To clarify, it is indeed my child that's the ill one!

born_again said:

Op cancelled DD in July.
So company will be charging for a bounced DD. 👍
But OP also said payment taken in August.
So something does not add up.

The DD wasn't cancelled until September, after that payment had been taken - in error, in my view - I fully expected August's payment to be taken.

eskbanker

GavHTFC said:

eskbanker said:

Did the July email state, or imply, that cancellation could be invoked simply by replying to the email, rather than requiring the standard defined process to be followed?

To give you the exact wording used: "During routine attendance checks, it has been identified that your ******* has not been attending the above sessions for some time now. Please can you let us know if you would like to continue with the lessons or not, or if we could do anything to help your child to return to the lessons?"

Unless there's anything expressed elsewhere in that email, I wouldn't have thought that the above wording can be equated to 'you can cancel by replying to this email, rather than using the process defined in the Ts & Cs', so am unconvinced about the strength of your case.  Not unreasonable to expect them to read, and respond to, a reply sent to that email, but that still wouldn't make them liable to accept a cancellation request via that channel IMHO....