Boundary Question

RunnerRower

Hoping for some advice from @Land_Registry please.

I bought a house 6 years ago that backs onto farmland. Last year I was cutting down a tree in my garden about 2 metres from my rear garden fence when the farmer stuck his head over the fence and told me I couldn't touch that tree because it was his, saying he owned a few metres of my garden as the fence was in the wrong place. The conversation was brief and I proceeded to cut down the tree after he'd gone with no repercussions. However, it did prompt me to look at the title plan of my property and notice that in relation to other features around, it does look as if the rear fence of my property is potentially further out than the actual boundary line on the OS map. I understand the principles of the general boundaries rule but am worried that the farmer could claim some of my garden based on the title plans seeming to show the boundary fence in a different place. Both plots are registered but there is no determined boundary. In any case, I don't feel comfortable that the title plan is so inaccurate given that the farmer has made this claim so I would like to ensure I have title to the entire garden.

I understand from the government website I could ask for the title plan to be more accurately drawn but presume that this would involve gaining the agreement of the farmer who, based on his comment, might not agree to this, so this doesn't feel like a feasible option.

I've also read about adverse possession and based on the testimonies of neighbours I know that the rear fence has been in place for more than ten years, and that the farmer himself erected it, so depriving himself of access to the land he now claims is his. So it sounds like I would potentially have a claim for adverse possession given that myself and the previous owners have used all the land up to the fence as our garden for more than ten years between us.

Given that either of the above routes is potentially incendiary with someone who may object, what is the best way to ensure that all the land in my garden is reflected in my title? If I ask HMLR to determine the boundary would they just defer to the position of the boundary on the OS map or would they take into account the other factors stated above?

Thanks for any help.

Albermarle

It sounds like the farmer was just letting you know of the situation. If they were stressed about it  they would have presumably reacted when you chopped the tree down.
Do you have neighbours either side ? If so where does their fences fit into this?

RunnerRower

Albermarle said:

It sounds like the farmer was just letting you know of the situation. If they were stressed about it  they would have presumably reacted when you chopped the tree down.
Do you have neighbours either side ? If so where does their fences fit into this?

Yes there are neighbours both sides. It is the relative positions of their rear boundaries on the OS map amongst other things that makes it appear my rear fence does not align with the OS map. Lots of the fences are wonky lines so not very straight forward. Just interested in knowing how I can get my title plan to match the actual garden.

Section62

RunnerRower said:

....

I've also read about adverse possession and based on the testimonies of neighbours I know that the rear fence has been in place for more than ten years, and that the farmer himself erected it, so depriving himself of access to the land he now claims is his. So it sounds like I would potentially have a claim for adverse possession given that myself and the previous owners have used all the land up to the fence as our garden for more than ten years between us.
....

Putting up a fence within your own land doesn't deprive you of access to the other bit of land. It isn't uncommon for farmers to put up fences a metre or two inside their boundary - for example to contain stock and keep them away from a hedge/ditch/trees etc.

As both plots are registered I believe you'll have difficulty going down the AP route - particularly as it was the farmer who put the fence up, rather than a previous owner of your property trying to make a claim on the land.

Was the tree you cut down on its own, or is there anything resembling a line of trees or a hedge?

MobileSaver

Section62 said:

RunnerRower said:

....

I've also read about adverse possession and based on the testimonies of neighbours I know that the rear fence has been in place for more than ten years, and that the farmer himself erected it, so depriving himself of access to the land he now claims is his. So it sounds like I would potentially have a claim for adverse possession given that myself and the previous owners have used all the land up to the fence as our garden for more than ten years between us.
....

particularly as it was the farmer who put the fence up

As @Section62 intimates, I think this is your Achilles heel. 

For Adverse Possession to be successful you need both an "intention to possess" and "possession without the owner's consent"; my view is that if the farmer opposes your AP attempt then he'll easily win on the basis that he was the one who put the fence up.

RunnerRower said:

Just interested in knowing how I can get my title plan to match the actual garden.

The obvious answer is by buying the extra land from the farmer if he is amenable to the idea. 

This may prove cheaper than incurring legal costs trying to claim AP especially if the farmer counter-claims for compensation and their own legal costs should you lose. FWIW, continuing to cut down the tree without first confirming that it was on your own land could come back to bite you in any legal actions and presumably it's not exactly made you the farmer's favourite neighbour either.

Land_Registry

You clearly have a reasonable understanding of options and others have given you a reasonable steer
Neighbours statements won't help you achieve the required time re adverse possession - it's all about you and your previous property owners - very complex law so do seek legal advice
Boundary agreement/Determined boundary - too much of a gap it seems between fence line and registered extent and/or farmer's agreement needed as you state
Acquire the land from the farmer might be the easiest option although it reads as if he's not likely to do that

silvercar

When you bought your solicitor should have asked you to check that the boundaries shown on the deeds match what you expect.

WIAWSNB

Hi RR.
How important is this strip of land to you?
If not much, then its value to you is also relatively small - and it clearly is to the farmer - so perhaps time for some humble pie and a chat?
Perhaps along the lines of, "Genuinely sorry about the tree - I honestly thought you were mistaken, as I always believed the fence was the boundary. But I've looked into it more, and have to accept you may be right - I wouldn't have touched the tree had I known. I'm not too concerned about that strip, but is it something you'd consider selling to me, if it isn't important to you either? What - £10k?! I'll have to pass on that, sorry. Anyhoo, sorry again, and good day..."
He may come back later with a much lower figure.
Have a recorder in your pocket...
(Obvs you'd need to check such an approach is wise)

Section62

WIAWSNB said:

Hi RR.
How important is this strip of land to you?
If not much, then its value to you is also relatively small - and it clearly is to the farmer - so perhaps time for some humble pie and a chat?
Perhaps along the lines of, "Genuinely sorry about the tree - I honestly thought you were mistaken, as I always believed the fence was the boundary. But I've looked into it more, and have to accept you may be right - I wouldn't have touched the tree had I known. I'm not too concerned about that strip, but is it something you'd consider selling to me, if it isn't important to you either? What - £10k?! I'll have to pass on that, sorry. Anyhoo, sorry again, and good day..."
He may come back later with a much lower figure.
Have a recorder in your pocket...
(Obvs you'd need to check such an approach is wise)

That really depends on how keen the farmer is to sell the land, which in turn probably relates to how flush with cash he is, and any spending/debt issues.  On the whole farmers are quite content to keep the land they have... selling normally happens only as a favour, or if there is a need to fill a hole in their finances.

I agree though, an apology for cutting the tree down is probably necessary, even if the OP is still absolutely sure it is on the land they purchased.  If there's doubt about something it is usually best to take a step back and check the facts.  Ploughing on regardless risks falling out, with long-term consequences.

Albermarle

Section62 said:

WIAWSNB said:

Hi RR.
How important is this strip of land to you?
If not much, then its value to you is also relatively small - and it clearly is to the farmer - so perhaps time for some humble pie and a chat?
Perhaps along the lines of, "Genuinely sorry about the tree - I honestly thought you were mistaken, as I always believed the fence was the boundary. But I've looked into it more, and have to accept you may be right - I wouldn't have touched the tree had I known. I'm not too concerned about that strip, but is it something you'd consider selling to me, if it isn't important to you either? What - £10k?! I'll have to pass on that, sorry. Anyhoo, sorry again, and good day..."
He may come back later with a much lower figure.
Have a recorder in your pocket...
(Obvs you'd need to check such an approach is wise)

That really depends on how keen the farmer is to sell the land, which in turn probably relates to how flush with cash he is, and any spending/debt issues.  On the whole farmers are quite content to keep the land they have... selling normally happens only as a favour, or if there is a need to fill a hole in their finances.

I agree though, an apology for cutting the tree down is probably necessary, even if the OP is still absolutely sure it is on the land they purchased.  If there's doubt about something it is usually best to take a step back and check the facts.  Ploughing on regardless risks falling out, with long-term consequences.

Farmers are always complaining that they make very little money ( and about the weather) so if this farmer is like that, he maybe will be open to a reasonable cash offer.

Section62

Albermarle said:

Section62 said:

WIAWSNB said:

Hi RR.
How important is this strip of land to you?
If not much, then its value to you is also relatively small - and it clearly is to the farmer - so perhaps time for some humble pie and a chat?
Perhaps along the lines of, "Genuinely sorry about the tree - I honestly thought you were mistaken, as I always believed the fence was the boundary. But I've looked into it more, and have to accept you may be right - I wouldn't have touched the tree had I known. I'm not too concerned about that strip, but is it something you'd consider selling to me, if it isn't important to you either? What - £10k?! I'll have to pass on that, sorry. Anyhoo, sorry again, and good day..."
He may come back later with a much lower figure.
Have a recorder in your pocket...
(Obvs you'd need to check such an approach is wise)

That really depends on how keen the farmer is to sell the land, which in turn probably relates to how flush with cash he is, and any spending/debt issues.  On the whole farmers are quite content to keep the land they have... selling normally happens only as a favour, or if there is a need to fill a hole in their finances.

I agree though, an apology for cutting the tree down is probably necessary, even if the OP is still absolutely sure it is on the land they purchased.  If there's doubt about something it is usually best to take a step back and check the facts.  Ploughing on regardless risks falling out, with long-term consequences.

Farmers are always complaining that they make very little money ( and about the weather) so if this farmer is like that, he maybe will be open to a reasonable cash offer.

There's also much truth in 'you never see a farmer on a bike'.

Being receptive to "a reasonable cash offer" perhaps, but "come back later with a much lower figure" would probably require a level of desperation which wasn't apparent in the OP's post.