23 year old bill and a question for the spreadsheet keepers.....

mmmmikey

Just shredding a box of old paperwork and I came across a statement from Powergen from 2002 which showed an annual total for gas and electricity combined of £600 and a unit rate for electricity of 6.75p/kWh. It caught my eye because my last bill from Octopus showed a total of just under £600 for the previous 12 months and I'm currently paying 6.70p/kWh overnight for electricity with EOn, with most of my usage being overnight now.

So having moved with the times I'm actually paying much the same for energy today in absolute terms that I was 23 years ago and way less in real terms. It makes me think that maybe things aren't quite as bad as the serial complainers about anything and everything green, Ofgem or energy market related would have us believe....

Do any of you spreadsheet keepers out there have any similar statistics to share?

Scot_39

And how much say have you had to invest in say your own equipment - say battery tech to do so - given the most use overnight now commnt ?

Money that millions of vulenerable homes that are paying far far more - simply do not have.

Edit

If say you've spent a few thousand even - some spend over £10000 on 1 let alone multiple Tesla powerwalls - to make such savings - have you added that into your current 6p/kWh comparison vs 23 years ago ?

Or the millions of renters do not have the option - or at least the tenancy security to risk it - for the c5m private renters - thats 20% of all electricity users in UK - most on short term insecure tenancies - liable to eviction at 2 months notice at any time.

Govt energy policy should be designed to protect those with the fewest options.

Not designed for the lucky ones who can - and often its a case of who can afford - to take advantage of the imbalances - so often these days caused by current net zero policy.

booneruk

I have my monthly spreadsheets going back to 2007. I can see I was paying British Gas £50pm for electric and gas in September of that year. Now, kids, we all know that "your direct debit is not your bill", but comparing that with the £80pm I pay now it looks on par considering inflation over that time.

I probably have more efficient appliances these days, TV, computer etc but nothing else has changed aside from £3000 fitting a new boiler.

Exodi

The problem of relying on anecdotal samples like you are suggesting is they allow you to reach whacky conclusions.

You're comparing the typical unit rate of 6.75p/kWh to a rate that only applies 1/4 of the day. Given that the average rate for your consumption is inevitably higher, this suggests your overall consumption has decreased since 2002 and you've shifted most of your usage to occur at night (likely through an expensive battery installation - though I didn't see that cost factored into the calculation).

You don't need to rely on anecdotal spreadsheets to know energy prices have gone up, there is data available (and good luck finding someone who has maintained the exact same usage for several decades), unless of course you think 'they' are lying to you.



Looking at the above, it looks like gas & electric have at least tripled since 2002, and this was before the insane increases in energy prices following the war in Ukraine! I'm sure I could do a bit more googling but it feels pointless since it seems as obvious as the sky being blue...

Article on energy prices over the last 20 years: https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-7352021/How-average-energy-bill-risen-inflation-busting-20-years.html

(and again, this was before the war in Ukraine that caused prices to surge).

mmmmikey said:

It makes me think that maybe things aren't quite as bad as the serial complainers about anything and everything green, Ofgem or energy market related would have us believe....

I bet the grandkids would love to hear your thoughts on it.

MikeJXE

It makes me wonder how big the box is that contains 23 years of bills and why would anyone keep stuff that long 

mmmmikey

Thanks for the responses

@Exodi you're absolutely right to point out that I'm not comparing like for like. I've changed lots of things in the last 23 years - that's the whole point. Clearly if I was living in the same house with the same typical gas central heating and electricity for everythng else and I was still on a single rate tariff my bills would have gone up massively. My point is no more an no less that despite the widely reported so called "cost of living crisis" and "energy crisis" although I'm living in a house with similar heating needs I'm paying no more than I was 23 years ago. The significance of this being that by recognising that things are changing and changing with them I've managed to keep my bills down. On the flip side, those that have done nothing but complain and are moaning how much better things were in the old days are paying way, way more. So there is a route forward for those who are proactive and choose to engage constructively. Of course there are many who need help and I'm all in favour of continuing and expanding the schemes that have been put in place over the years to help them. And I'm sure the grandkids will be grateful for me for doing my bit to improve the future environment rather than just endlessly polluting it and leaving it for them to sort out. It's why younger people are generally much more engaged than older people when it comes to environmental concerns.

@Scot_39 the only thing I've bought over and above "normal" is a battery system for £3000 and it should be evident why that has paid for itself already and will probably pay for itself many times over. At the same time you've been complaining about the high average cost of electricity I've been celebrating the abundant supply of cheap electricity if you buy it when supply is high and demand is low. We're both correct - your glass is half empty and mine is half full. Other expenses are in line with general maintenance - for example if I'd stayed living where I was I would have had two replacement boilers by now (at a cost of about £2000 each time?) which is much the same I've paid for replacing my crappy old storage heaters in my current house and hot water cylinder with HHR models and a thermal store. £3000 for the battery is not a trivial expense but well within reach for a huge number of homeowners who make it a priority (I financed my by putting off updating my car for a year and buying a lower spec model).

@MikeJXE it was a photocopier paper box full of papers from 7 years ago and I was doing my annual purge - the Powergen statement had just been misfiled Not a big enough issue to make me want to re-check the more recent boxes

@booneruk thanks, I'll bet it's not just you and me who haven't jumped on the "doomed, we're all doomed" bandwagon. 

So has anyone else got a success story to share?

The_Green_Hornet

Depending on which year I selectively pick for comparison purposes I can claim that either:

a) I am spending 20 percent less that I was was 16 years ago or
b) I am spending 80 percent more than I was 5 years ago.

I suppose it all depends on which point I was trying to make.

Qyburn

Even before we fitted solar we reduced our annual electricity use by nearly 50% compared to 10 years ago. Mostly by changes in habits, stuff like not leaving the PC running and a multitude of similar changes. But I must admit that a chunk was saved by replacing the freezer.

Exodi

mmmmikey said:

@Exodi you're absolutely right to point out that I'm not comparing like for like. I've changed lots of things in the last 23 years - that's the whole point. Clearly if I was living in the same house with the same typical gas central heating and electricity for everythng else and I was still on a single rate tariff my bills would have gone up massively. 

OK phew, where you were going on about "things aren't quite as bad as the serial complainers about anything and everything green, Ofgem or energy market related would have us believe...." had me thinking you were a tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist alleging that energy prices haven't changed and we've all been deceived!

Reducing usage is of course a recommendation we can all get behind.

mmmmikey said:

My point is no more an no less that despite the widely reported so called "cost of living crisis" and "energy crisis" although I'm living in a house with similar heating needs I'm paying no more than I was 23 years ago.

You're losing me here again, what do you mean 'so called' cost of living crisis and energy crisis? I thought we just agreed that energy prices have rocketed through the stratosphere? I am glad you personally have the resources and scope to invest in your home energy system and cut your usage, but it's very strange to imply there is no crisis now because of it.

mmmmikey said:

The significance of this being that by recognising that things are changing and changing with them I've managed to keep my bills down.

But you seem to not recognise the cost of your infrastructure.

You've said you spend ~£600 combined on Electricity & Gas. I don't know the mix, lets say its 2/3rds Electricity (£400) and 1/3rd Gas (£200), this is about my cost mix, but I have an electric car. It may be different.

Let's say everything remains constant for 10 years, so you spend £4000 on Electricity.

My issue with how you're portraying things is that you've also spent £3000 on a battery system but not factored it in. Lifespans are advised at 5-15 years, so let's say 10 years. Factor that in and you're now spending £7000 over 10 years, or £700 a year on electricity, not £400.

So it's not the case your energy bills have stayed the same. In reality they've increased from ~£600 to ~£900 a month (but kudos, this is still less than they would have if you had done nothing).

mmmmikey said:

On the flip side, those that have done nothing but complain and are moaning how much better things were in the old days are paying way, way more. So there is a route forward for those who are proactive and choose to engage constructively. Of course there are many who need help and I'm all in favour of continuing and expanding the schemes that have been put in place over the years to help them. And I'm sure the grandkids will be grateful for me for doing my bit to improve the future environment rather than just endlessly polluting it and leaving it for them to sort out. It's why younger people are generally much more engaged than older people when it comes to environmental concerns.

Having the surplus capital to invest in energy efficiency (heat pumps, solar panels, battery systems, etc) is great. The problem is that a significant amount of people do not have this option available to them. You may think the cost-of-living crisis doesn't exist within your bubble, but for over a quarter of the population with less than a grand in savings it certainly does. For the average 25 – 34-year-old, a battery installation would effectively represent their entire savings. What about all the people that are renting? You seem to characterise the only reason for not taking action being stubbornness. I expect most people recognise their energy bills have gone up.

I don't know when you had your system installed, but I strongly suspect the cost for the same system is likely to be much more than £3k now. The whole vibe of this thread just feels a bit misguided and tone deaf.

matt_drummer

Exodi said:

 them I've managed to keep my bills down.

But you seem to not recognise the cost of your infrastructure.

You've said you spend ~£600 combined on Electricity & Gas. I don't know the mix, lets say its 2/3rds Electricity (£400) and 1/3rd Gas (£200), this is about my cost mix, but I have an electric car. It may be different.

Let's say everything remains constant for 10 years, so you spend £4000 on Electricity.

My issue with how you're portraying things is that you've also spent £3000 on a battery system but not factored it in. Lifespans are advised at 5-15 years, so let's say 10 years. Factor that in and you're now spending £7000 over 10 years, or £700 a month.

So it's not the case your energy bills have stayed the same. In reality they've increased from ~£400 to ~£700 a month (but kudos, this is still less than they would have if you had done nothing).

I thinks your maths is off by a factor of 12!

Exodi

matt_drummer said:

Exodi said:

 them I've managed to keep my bills down.

But you seem to not recognise the cost of your infrastructure.

You've said you spend ~£600 combined on Electricity & Gas. I don't know the mix, lets say its 2/3rds Electricity (£400) and 1/3rd Gas (£200), this is about my cost mix, but I have an electric car. It may be different.

Let's say everything remains constant for 10 years, so you spend £4000 on Electricity.

My issue with how you're portraying things is that you've also spent £3000 on a battery system but not factored it in. Lifespans are advised at 5-15 years, so let's say 10 years. Factor that in and you're now spending £7000 over 10 years, or £700 a month.

So it's not the case your energy bills have stayed the same. In reality they've increased from ~£400 to ~£700 a month (but kudos, this is still less than they would have if you had done nothing).

I thinks your maths is off by a factor of 12!

HAHA, oh dear! Meant to say a year, let me edit, shouldn't do things first thing in the morning.