Distributing Estate (Possible Problems)

DancingBadger

I'm about to start finalising the estate(s) of my late sister and BIL and would like to be prepared for some anticipated grief specifically in relation to the property.

They were tenants in common and their original wills left their respective shares of their property to my BIL's sister and me - so my sister's will left 50 percent of her half of the property to me and 50 percent to her husband's sister, and his will did exactly the same.  The intended net effect was BIL's sister and I would each inherit half of the property.

In the event, BIL's sister died before either of them, so her share passes per stirpes to her five children, one of whom died in an accident so I need to divide his share between his children.

After my sister's death, BIL changed his will splitting his whole estate between just one of his sister's children and me as residual beneficiaries and executors.  It sounds harsh, but she did a lot for him while her siblings were conspicuous by their absence, except after his death.

Questions:

1.  What is the best way to make payment to the siblings?  My thinking is I should sent them a cheque.  

2.  They're not entitled to see the estate accounts, but should I include the completion statement for the property?  

3.  One of the siblings has emigrated to Australia and because of some social security problem (I have no idea what, and don't want to know) she anticipates, wants me to transfer her share to her daughter.  My initial reaction to that is a hard no.  Am I correct?

One of the siblings is furious he's been written out of his uncle's will and is threatening to challenge it.  He doesn't meet any of the legal requirements to do so, and I'm not too concerned about his threats, but I do worry he'll try and cause some sort of problem for me when I send his cheque.  I need to do everything by the book in order to head him off before he gets silly.

Any advice would be gratefully received.

poseidon1

Answers:

1)  This was covered extensively in your last post below -

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6607736/conveyancing-solicitors-distributing-property-proceeds#latest

2) As beneficiaries of the residual estate ( albeit at one stage remove via their own mother's estate) they are entitled to copies of the estate accounts to see how their respective entitlements were ascertained.  Indeed  the preamble notes to the accounts should explain how the end beneficiaies were ascertained and name them. I certainly do not agree your reasoning process in the previous thread. By all means include the property completion statement as a back up supporting schedule to the accounts.

3) As you say, this is a hard no. However if they are prepared to execute a formal deed of variation to divert their share to there own daughter, that let's you off the hook. Presumably you are still within two years since BIL's date of death?

DancingBadger

poseidon1 said:

Answers:

1)  This was covered extensively in your last post below -

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6607736/conveyancing-solicitors-distributing-property-proceeds#latest

2) As beneficiaries of the residual estate ( albeit at one stage remove via their own mother's estate) they are entitled to copies of the estate accounts to see how their respective entitlements were ascertained.  Indeed  the preamble notes to the accounts should explain how the end beneficiaies were ascertained and name them. I certainly do not agree your reasoning process in the previous thread. By all means include the property completion statement as a back up supporting schedule to the accounts.

3) As you say, this is a hard no. However if they are prepared to execute a formal deed of variation to divert their share to there own daughter, that let's you off the hook. Presumably you are still within two years since BIL's date of death?

1.  Thank you for the link to my previous thread; I hadn't seen all the responses.

2.  The siblings are not residual beneficiaries; they're percentage beneficiaries of one quarter of the proceeds of sale of the property - hence my thinking I should send a copy of the completion statement only and for clarification, possibly a copy of my sister's will under which they benefit.

3.  I could suggest a deed of variation, but I suspect it wouldn't be an option they'd consider.  I just needed to know my stance on only paying the person named in the will is correct - and yes, BIL died in February this year.

poseidon1

DancingBadger said:

poseidon1 said:

Answers:

1)  This was covered extensively in your last post below -

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6607736/conveyancing-solicitors-distributing-property-proceeds#latest

2) As beneficiaries of the residual estate ( albeit at one stage remove via their own mother's estate) they are entitled to copies of the estate accounts to see how their respective entitlements were ascertained.  Indeed  the preamble notes to the accounts should explain how the end beneficiaies were ascertained and name them. I certainly do not agree your reasoning process in the previous thread. By all means include the property completion statement as a back up supporting schedule to the accounts.

3) As you say, this is a hard no. However if they are prepared to execute a formal deed of variation to divert their share to there own daughter, that let's you off the hook. Presumably you are still within two years since BIL's date of death?

1.  Thank you for the link to my previous thread; I hadn't seen all the responses.

2.  The siblings are not residual beneficiaries; they're percentage beneficiaries of one quarter of the proceeds of sale of the property - hence my thinking I should send a copy of the completion statement only and for clarification, possibly a copy of my sister's will under which they benefit.

3.  I could suggest a deed of variation, but I suspect it wouldn't be an option they'd consider.  I just needed to know my stance on only paying the person named in the will is correct - and yes, BIL died in February this year.

I see in 2) I may have  I misconstrued their position.

It seems BIL's will only left his personally owned half share of the property that ended up passing to his surviving nieces/nephews whilst his remaining estate residue passed as you stated. In that case, the completion statement should certainly suffice as supporting verification of the beneficiaries' distributions.

Do you have to deal with any deposit interest on the proceeds, pre distribution  or are all funds held on non interest bearing accounts?

tetrarch

DancingBadger said:

3.  I could suggest a deed of variation, but I suspect it wouldn't be an option they'd consider.  I just needed to know my stance on only paying the person named in the will is correct - and yes, BIL died in February this year.

Tell them that no deed of variation = no dice on re-routing the payment

The DoV only needs to be signed by the beneficiaries having their share changed. i.e. the troublesome legatee cannot interfere

You can do a DoV without involving a solicitor

Regards

Tet

DancingBadger

poseidon1 said:

DancingBadger said:

poseidon1 said:

Answers:

1)  This was covered extensively in your last post below -

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6607736/conveyancing-solicitors-distributing-property-proceeds#latest

2) As beneficiaries of the residual estate ( albeit at one stage remove via their own mother's estate) they are entitled to copies of the estate accounts to see how their respective entitlements were ascertained.  Indeed  the preamble notes to the accounts should explain how the end beneficiaies were ascertained and name them. I certainly do not agree your reasoning process in the previous thread. By all means include the property completion statement as a back up supporting schedule to the accounts.

3) As you say, this is a hard no. However if they are prepared to execute a formal deed of variation to divert their share to there own daughter, that let's you off the hook. Presumably you are still within two years since BIL's date of death?

1.  Thank you for the link to my previous thread; I hadn't seen all the responses.

2.  The siblings are not residual beneficiaries; they're percentage beneficiaries of one quarter of the proceeds of sale of the property - hence my thinking I should send a copy of the completion statement only and for clarification, possibly a copy of my sister's will under which they benefit.

3.  I could suggest a deed of variation, but I suspect it wouldn't be an option they'd consider.  I just needed to know my stance on only paying the person named in the will is correct - and yes, BIL died in February this year.

I see in 2) I may have  I misconstrued their position.

It seems BIL's will only left his personally owned half share of the property that ended up passing to his surviving nieces/nephews whilst his remaining estate residue passed as you stated. In that case, the completion statement should certainly suffice as supporting verification of the beneficiaries' distributions.

Do you have to deal with any deposit interest on the proceeds, pre distribution  or are all funds held on non interest bearing accounts?

It was my sister who left her half share of the property initially split between BIL's sister and me, but in the event BIL's sister died and her one quarter share passes per stirpes to her children.  My sister's remaining assets passed to my BIL and were added to his NRB.  

I just need to make sure I distribute that one quarter of the proceeds of sale properly to protect myself from possible repercussions.

No funds are held in an interest bearing account at the moment. The sale of the property completes tomorrow and I intend to send the siblings their inheritance as soon as I receive the proceeds.

The remainder of the estate is split between the other beneficiary and me.  I've paid all the estate debts and made interim payments on account to her and me.   £10k has been retained to cover any unforeseen debts.  I used the Tell Us Once service and promptly received a letter from HMRC advising of unpaid tax on savings interest, but no demand yet.  

BikingBud

I would end up drawing a family tree and ensuring each leg got the apporpriate figures and where it skipped due to people pre-deceasing thee testator the next level get the split. If all figures are provided as decimal components and some decided to reallocate via DOV then that element eg 0.2 or  015 can easily be shown to have changed. 

poseidon1

DancingBadger said:

poseidon1 said:

DancingBadger said:

poseidon1 said:

Answers:

1)  This was covered extensively in your last post below -

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6607736/conveyancing-solicitors-distributing-property-proceeds#latest

2) As beneficiaries of the residual estate ( albeit at one stage remove via their own mother's estate) they are entitled to copies of the estate accounts to see how their respective entitlements were ascertained.  Indeed  the preamble notes to the accounts should explain how the end beneficiaies were ascertained and name them. I certainly do not agree your reasoning process in the previous thread. By all means include the property completion statement as a back up supporting schedule to the accounts.

3) As you say, this is a hard no. However if they are prepared to execute a formal deed of variation to divert their share to there own daughter, that let's you off the hook. Presumably you are still within two years since BIL's date of death?

1.  Thank you for the link to my previous thread; I hadn't seen all the responses.

2.  The siblings are not residual beneficiaries; they're percentage beneficiaries of one quarter of the proceeds of sale of the property - hence my thinking I should send a copy of the completion statement only and for clarification, possibly a copy of my sister's will under which they benefit.

3.  I could suggest a deed of variation, but I suspect it wouldn't be an option they'd consider.  I just needed to know my stance on only paying the person named in the will is correct - and yes, BIL died in February this year.

I see in 2) I may have  I misconstrued their position.

It seems BIL's will only left his personally owned half share of the property that ended up passing to his surviving nieces/nephews whilst his remaining estate residue passed as you stated. In that case, the completion statement should certainly suffice as supporting verification of the beneficiaries' distributions.

Do you have to deal with any deposit interest on the proceeds, pre distribution  or are all funds held on non interest bearing accounts?

It was my sister who left her half share of the property initially split between BIL's sister and me, but in the event BIL's sister died and her one quarter share passes per stirpes to her children.  My sister's remaining assets passed to my BIL and were added to his NRB.  

I just need to make sure I distribute that one quarter of the proceeds of sale properly to protect myself from possible repercussions.

No funds are held in an interest bearing account at the moment. The sale of the property completes tomorrow and I intend to send the siblings their inheritance as soon as I receive the proceeds.

The remainder of the estate is split between the other beneficiary and me.  I've paid all the estate debts and made interim payments on account to her and me.   £10k has been retained to cover any unforeseen debts.  I used the Tell Us Once service and promptly received a letter from HMRC advising of unpaid tax on savings interest, but no demand yet.  

Impressive, a lot achieved since February.

 It seems both your BIL and sister providing clear unambiguous instructions  in their respective wills helped assist you in progressing  rapidly.

Robert_McGeddon

Some thoughts – not answering the OP’s original questions!

1         As the OP’s sister predeceased the BiL her estate should be finalised first. Were there assets other than the property?  What happened to the residue?  Some of this may then need to be included in the BiL’s estate.

2         If BiL’s sister predeceased the OP’s sister then doesn’t the legacy to BiL’s sister fail and fall back into the residue of her estate?  This could mean the OP is entitled to more than initially set out in the will.

3         I thought ’Per stirpes’ related to direct descendants of the Testator, which doesn’t seem to be the case here.

4         DoVs might be appropriate.

I think this link provides some more informed observations.

Of course the detailed provisions of the wills, particularly for substitute beneficiaries, may make some of the above irrelevant.

Robert_McGeddon

Some thoughts – not answering the OP’s original questions!

1         As the OP’s sister predeceased the BiL her estate should be finalised first. Were there assets other than the property?  What happened to the residue?  Some of this may then need to be included in the BiL’s estate.

2         If BiL’s sister predeceased the OP’s sister then doesn’t the legacy to BiL’s sister fail and fall back into the residue of her estate?  This could mean the OP is entitled to more than initially set out in the will.

3         I thought ’Per stirpes’ related to direct descendants of the Testator, which doesn’t seem to be the case here.

4         DoVs might be appropriate.

I think this link provides some more informed observations.

Of course the detailed provisions of the wills, particularly for substitute beneficiaries, may make some of the above irrelevant.