PCN received from ECP @ Church Street, Maidstone - help with landowner & signage

EcksTen

Hi all,
Euro Car Parks issued a PCN at Church Street - Maidstone, 3 Church Street, Maidstone, Kent, ME14 1DS.

I'm trying to get:

1) Images of the signage here. Google Maps Street View is from 2023 so can't rely on that, it is also too blurry to get any text from the signs.
If anyone has had to take photos here in recent times, or passes through this car park frequently and wouldn't mind taking some photos, I would be incredibly grateful;

2) Details of the land owner. I've looked at Land Registry and all I can see is this (which indicates Maidstone Borough Council):

Not sure if that's correct or what it means.
If anyone happens to know the landowner details, again, I would be most grateful if you could share.
(Again the signage on Google Maps says "Managed by Euro Car Parks on behalf of" but the rest is.very difficult to make out, hence why I'm asking for photos).

The below details may or may not be relevant.

A short background, PCN is for "P&D/permit did not cover the date and time of parking"
2 main points: 
1) ANPR shows entering at 13:23:12 but wasn't able to get parking space and work out ticket machine until 13:33.
2) ANPR shows exit as 16:49:09. The driver's 3 year old fell over on the street just outside the car park and cut his knee open. They went to the car but driver was consoling the 3 year old and cleaning the knee (it was a big cut with blood - big enough to make a 3 year old howl in pain/sadness), so was not in a position to drive out of the car park safely.

If this had been a car park where a person was checking tickets I'm sure they would have allowed the extra time to stay and tend to the child, the use of technology here has taken out the common sense/compassion.

Thank you all!

EcksTen

Thanks @Coupon-mad!

1) When you say "stick to your main thread", do you mean looking for anyone that has images of the signage and trying to find the landowner? (As opposed to the timing and extenuating circumstances of the injured child).

2) I'm confused by the result on the quick Land Registry check, which suggests Maidstone Borough Council is the landowner of the site, does anyone have experience with these kind of results?

Presumably I can't complain to them because they couldn't care less either?

(The only thing I haven't done yet is pay to get the full details from Land Registry, but I'll do it if it's recommended).

3) Should I put an appeal in now anyway, while still trying to look for landowner details? (As this is a NTK PCN by post).

4) If so, could I use the mitigating circumstances option, or do you always recommend using the "One Size Fits All" blue text response as registered keeper from Newbies Thread?

FrankCannon

@EcksTen - If you PM me, I can send you some images that I took this morning.

I think the address you need is 3 Church Street. Regular Umkomaas often gives this advice to find the landowner ;

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/80409785/#Comment_80409785

Coupon-mad

EcksTen said:

Thanks @Coupon-mad!

1) When you say "stick to your main thread", do you mean looking for anyone that has images of the signage and trying to find the landowner? (As opposed to the timing and extenuating circumstances of the injured child).

2) I'm confused by the result on the quick Land Registry check, which suggests Maidstone Borough Council is the landowner of the site, does anyone have experience with these kind of results?

Presumably I can't complain to them because they couldn't care less either?

(The only thing I haven't done yet is pay to get the full details from Land Registry, but I'll do it if it's recommended).

3) Should I put an appeal in now anyway, while still trying to look for landowner details? (As this is a NTK PCN by post).

4) If so, could I use the mitigating circumstances option, or do you always recommend using the "One Size Fits All" blue text response as registered keeper from Newbies Thread?

1. Sorry, I assumed you had a thread already going about this PCN! My bad.

2. Yes complain

3. Yes, also appeal

4.  No template in your case, complain and appeal with similar words, setting out the detail and timeline of your 2 main points: 

"1) ANPR shows entering at 13:23:12 but wasn't able to get parking space and work out ticket machine until 13:33.
2) ANPR shows exit as 16:49:09. The driver's 3 year old fell over on the street just outside the car park and cut his knee open. They went to the car but driver was consoling the 3 year old and cleaning the knee (it was a big cut with blood - big enough to make a 3 year old howl in pain/sadness), so was not in a position to drive out of the car park safely.

If this had been a car park where a person was checking tickets I'm sure they would have allowed the extra time to stay and tend to the child, the use of technology here has taken out the common sense/compassion."

EcksTen

FrankCannon said:

@EcksTen - If you PM me, I can send you some images that I took this morning.

I think the address you need is 3 Church Street. Regular Umkomaas often gives this advice to find the landowner ;

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/80409785/#Comment_80409785

Thanks FrankCannon, I've sent a PM.

Thank you for the link, that's the list I've been working from. After googling provided no results I thought I'd ask in the forum in case anyone else had had dealings with this car park. I found and asked on this post by @Amorymar back in May this year, but no response from the OP so no idea how that went or if they managed to get landowner details.

-The Land Registry website provided the above image which indicates "Maidstone Borough Council".

-I've looked for the business rates information and according to Maidstone Council Website these are paid by "ECP (HOLDINGS) LPC" and conveniently hidden address of "OPP 48 CHURCH STREET, MAIDSTONE, KENT, ME14 1DS" rather than outright "3 Church Street" as per the NTK PCN.

(EDIT: From 1994 - 2024 "MARKS & SPENCER PLC" paid the rates for that address, but there isn't a M&S nearby. Looking at the Google Maps Street view from 2023 again the signage of "Managed by Euro Car Parks on behalf of" looks like it could say "M&S PLC" - but does that mean they bought the site from M&S, it's still owned by M&S, someone else owns it??).

I'll call the council now and see if there's any other details.

FrankCannon

Hello EcksTen,

I have put the images on DropBox, here ;

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/73ev6yp0dt9k5uzbgt0kj/ALI-aXX5RZMu-3gSdvR5E4c?rlkey=n81mxoa9n8qauaud8f60o3v05&st=e3y2faln&dl=0

Let me know if you have issues accessing them.

I used to work in Maidstone many years ago, when the M&S was in Week Street. I remember that the store had an entrance/exit at the back. Here's the main entrance in Week Street ;

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.2750569,0.5225726,3a,75y,76.64h,84.05t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sJTLsBxvd01ffivPDN0Mm-g!2e0!5s20180501T000000!6shttps://streetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com/v1/thumbnail?cb_client=maps_sv.tactile&w=900&h=600&pitch=5.951902760623753&panoid=JTLsBxvd01ffivPDN0Mm-g&yaw=76.6379679785602!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDgyNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw==

Here's the entrance in Church Street in 2018 ;

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.2751681,0.5240779,3a,75y,310.82h,89.83t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1s2QvU_ODKSJvVSr-RJcC1nQ!2e0!5s20180901T000000!6shttps://streetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com/v1/thumbnail?cb_client=maps_sv.tactile&w=900&h=600&pitch=0.16741538217776508&panoid=2QvU_ODKSJvVSr-RJcC1nQ&yaw=310.82146137827743!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDgyNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw==

M&S moved to a site close to the M20 some time between 2017 and 2020 ;

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.2862095,0.5491796,3a,75y,5.1h,94.66t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sWX43bIX7Sd-Fpb-Bke198A!2e0!5s20201201T000000!6shttps://streetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com/v1/thumbnail?cb_client=maps_sv.tactile&w=900&h=600&pitch=-4.658377103924167&panoid=WX43bIX7Sd-Fpb-Bke198A&yaw=5.098657923326812!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDgyNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw==

I have a vague memory of M&S having a car park, so it could be that they owned that car park at some point. I have another vague memory of M&S using ECP to "manage" some of their car parks.

EcksTen

@FrankCannon - Thank you so much for this, that's great!  The info and photos you provided also follows with the information showing on Maidstone Council public records.  The only thing I've not been able to verify is who the current landowner is - I'm going to call Land Registry today to ascertain exactly.

@Coupon-mad - Thank you for the confirmation.  I've put the folowing appeal text together, it largely follows the text I wrote before with a few tweaks:

"To whom it may concern,
I am writing this appeal on behalf of the driver at the time.

Firstly there is a descrepancy between the time of ticket purchase and the ANPR entry time.
ANPR shows entering at 13:23:12 but the driver was not able to get a free parking space, find and work out ticket machine and then purchase a ticket until 13:33 (the ticket does not show seconds so we do not know exactly how long this difference is). Please see photo attached.

Secondly, the ANPR shows the vehicle exiting the site at 16:49:09. There are mitigating circumstances for the driver leaving the land. The driver's 3 year old had an accident that needed attending to - they fell over on Church Street just outside the car park and cut their knee open. They went to the car but the driver was consoling the 3 year old, cleaning the knee and inspecting it to see what kind of damage had been sustained e.g. if it required going to hospital (it was a big cut with enough blood to make a 3 year old howl in pain/sadness), so was not in a position to drive out of the car park safely. Please see photo of the child with cut, but cleaned knee, attached.

If this had been a car park where a person was checking tickets I'm sure they would have allowed the extra time to stay and tend to the child, knowing they had returned to the car in time but not able to leave until the accident and child had been seen to. The use of technology here has taken out the common sense/compassion.

Many thanks."

Coupon-mad

Yes send it but it won't actually work and the appeal is the LEAST urgent step to try!

EcksTen

So I've got a reply to my appeal, as you expected @Coupon-mad it has been denied, with a photo of the parking charges sign.

They've still got the wrong address on the letter that was attached to the E-Mail even though I put an updated address in when submitting the appeal. (V5C is currently in the process of being updated as we moved recently).

The land is owned by ECP Holding Ltd, so I don't think there is any point complaining to them to cancel the parking ticket.

I guess I have to fight this now with POPLA, though I'm scared there isn't a huge scope for winning there.

jd576

A ten minute interval between entry and payment is entirely reasonable.

You left at 16:49 - until what time was your parking session actually valid?

EcksTen

@jd576

Ticket purchased 13:33

Ticket shows expiry 16:33
CCTV shows vehicle leaving car park 16:49
So it was 6 minutes after the BPA's minimum grace period.of 10 minutes to leave a car park.
(Although the PCN is claiming I stayed for 3 hours 26 mins).

Couldn't have gotten into the car with a howling child after their accident let alone left the car park