changing the way you eat

Sarahwx

I am looking forward to a good debate with friends who buy their processed and intensive farmed expensive food stuffs after these programmes air on channel 4 -called the big food fight -http://www.channel4.com/food/on-tv/the-big-food-fight/the-big-food-fight-preview-07-12-18_p_1.html

it looks really interesting and hopefully will highlight cost saving ethical eating !

geordie_joe

Well I'll chuck my two penneth into the pot.

First I don't know what you mean by "friends who buy their processed and intensive farmed expensive food". I though intensive farmed processed food was cheaper then free range organic stuff?

I also don';t know what you mean by "hopefully will highlight cost saving ethical eating"

In my experience "ethical eating" costs a lot more.

I'm old enough to remember when the local farm shop sold meat and veg cheaper than you could buy it in the shops. This was because they would sell their produce to a processor, who would then sell it to a distributer, who would then sell it to the supermarket. By cutting out the middle men you got the stuff cheaper.

I also don't give a fig what happened to the animal I'm going to eat while it was alive. I realise that I was made to eat meat, but thanks to humans being clever I didn't have to go chasing cows and pigs because years ago someone realsised that if they fenced then in they would still be there in the morning and they wouldn't need to chase them again.

I also don't understand why a farmer can plant a turnip that costs them 10p, then spend a quid on labour to look after it and stuff to stop it getting ill (or eaten by critters), then say "This turnip has cost me £1.10, I need to make 10p profit so you can have it for £1.20"

When another farmer says "here's a turnip, it cost me 10p and I have done f_ck all with it, just stuck it in the ground and left it. OK, it might look more like Jimmy Cranky than a turnip, and yes, some critters have eaten some of it, but you can have it for £2.50....go on, it's organic"

In my opinion the whole "green / ethical" thing has been taken over by people who just want to charge us more for stuff.

Seakay

Some of the hidden costs of organic food production:

higher animal welfare standards
cost of certification and inspection
seed is less abundant at the moment so more expensive
higher employment costs - organic farms employ more people for weeding etc

Some of the hidden costs of non-organic food production:

Millions spent removing pesticides, nitrates etc from water
Declogging waterways as nitrates encourage weed growth
Rural unemployment
Antibiotics in the food chain means that they work less well as bacterias become resistant and we become more susceptible to eg salmonella

There will always be people who are only in it for the money, and to be fair, why should food producers be different to any other group in this regard? But there are also large numbers who are trying to make a living while subscribing to their own ethical standards and beliefs.

Cardew

Ethical?

Like 'free range' eggs?

geordie_joe

I think "Ethical" means you can stand behind your market stall and proudly tell your customers that "this lamb was very happy, right up until the time a slit it's throat"

more_money_for_me

Alternatively you could miss the TV program and watch trolls on MSE instead.;)

anguk

Well I watched the first show last night and I wasn't surprised by the conditions that the battery chickens were kept in, I think you'd have to be very naive to think they lived a wonderful life.

What did surprise and dismay me was the conditions that the so called "free-range" chickens were kept in, about 1,500 birds crammed in a shed. Yes they had slightly more room than the battery chickens and yes in a few weeks time they can have access to the outside if they want but it certainly wasn't the image of free-range that I have. And yet these chickens can cost 3-4 times more than the other type!

It has shown how bad intensive farming is though, both "normal" and free-range, I used to feel a bit guilty eating a standard chicken but really couldn't justify paying the higher price for free-range. After seeing that show I don't think I'd feel any better paying the higher price and eating free-range.

For some reason free-range conjures up an idealistic view of animals frolicing in the fields, enjoying their life but in reality this isn't true and it will never happen as long as there is intensive farming. This is one of the reasons I don't buy free-range eggs from the supermarket because I don't think they're produced in much better conditions than battery eggs. I'm lucky and get my eggs from a little small-holding close-by where I can actually see the hens and the conditions they live in.

Unfortunately, free-range or organic demands a higher price and many, if not most, producers are jumping on the "green & ethical" bandwagon when in reality the animals aren't cared for any better.

Seakay

I would be interested to know which guidelines HFW is using for his organic standard - when his chickens get access to the outside they would appear to have a lovely grassy paddock to go into. Is this the minimum space allowable for organic, or rather more?
Different organic certifications have different standards, I know that the Soil Association has animal welfare standards but I'm not sure about others.
For instance, if the outdoor area is the same as the indoor area then it will soon become bare earth. How often do outdoor areas have to be regenerated or changed?
I will be interested in future programmes to see if the organic shed is cleaned out more than the broiler shed. If it is then this will make a big difference to conditions in a space which is only used for roosting.

geordie_joe

Seakay wrote: »

I would be interested to know which guidelines HFW is using for his organic standard -

I don't know about organic standards, but I am watching the programme now. He has just shown the town folk the free range chickens and now they are seeing the the "standard" ones. As they were going into the shed there was a notice saying "in case of emergency dial 999, the nearest phone is located at" But nothing had been filled in for the phone location!

He's now trying to convince them to by free range. Pointing out that it is only £2 difference between the Tesco standard chicken and the free range one. "If there are four of you (in your family) that's only 50p per head. 50p isn't much to go free range, is it?" And they are all standing and nodding, saying "No 50p isn't much at all"

I can just imagine four of them sitting eating a free range chicken, with three of them thinking "It only cost 50p for me to go free range, I do feel good" And the fourth (Housewife and mother) thinking "This bird cost me an extra £2, it better be worth it!"

Pandora123_2

geordie_joe wrote: »

I don't know about organic standards, but I am watching the programme now. He has just shown the town folk the free range chickens and now they are seeing the the "standard" ones. As they were going into the shed there was a notice saying "in case of emergency dial 999, the nearest phone is located at" But nothing had been filled in for the phone location!

He's now trying to convince them to by free range. Pointing out that it is only £2 difference between the Tesco standard chicken and the free range one. "If there are four of you (in your family) that's only 50p per head. 50p isn't much to go free range, is it?" And they are all standing and nodding, saying "No 50p isn't much at all"

I can just imagine four of them sitting eating a free range chicken, with three of them thinking "It only cost 50p for me to go free range, I do feel good" And the fourth (Housewife and mother) thinking "This bird cost me an extra £2, it better be worth it!"

I guess it depends on an individual's personal ethics as to whether it is "worth it" or not. Cruelty to living, sentient creatures bothers some people a lot, some a little and others not at all. Someone whose conscience is pricked by knowledge of the miserable lives of intensively-farmed animals will probably feel 50p per head is a bargain. Others would not pay an extra pence for ethically-produced meat.

Anyone who is bothered by the suffering of intensively-farmed animals, yet continues to support the industry by buying meat from those animals is a hypocrite, IMO.

lightisfading

geordie_joe wrote: »

I also don't understand why a farmer can plant a turnip that costs them 10p, then spend a quid on labour to look after it and stuff to stop it getting ill (or eaten by critters), then say "This turnip has cost me £1.10, I need to make 10p profit so you can have it for £1.20"

When another farmer says "here's a turnip, it cost me 10p and I have done f_ck all with it, just stuck it in the ground and left it. OK, it might look more like Jimmy Cranky than a turnip, and yes, some critters have eaten some of it, but you can have it for £2.50....go on, it's organic"

Much of the extra cost is in labour - a non organic vegetable will have been sprayed with huge amounts of pesticides and weedkillers, whereas the organic one will have been well... weeded!

I know which one I'd rather eat....

(oh yes, and by nature vegetables aren't perfectly spherical. Since you obviously cared about how you were 'made to eat meat' - ie natural path etc - you obviously realise this :rolleyes: )