Off street parking and PTAL 5 zone

ReX

I am looking at a new build in London that has access for vehicles and enough space for parking 2-3 cars off street. 

But I just found out that the site was classed as PTAL 5, which according to Google means that car parking is not possible.

This is mentioned in the planning application for the new build. They say that the access is only for unloading vehicles and deliveries. 

Is that decision definitive or can be fixed?

It seems that a PTAL 5 property doesn't even grant on street parking. If that's true, I think it could be very hard to sell, as it is not a central area, it is not connected well, it is a relatively large house and there is no public parking available in the area. 

flaneurs_lobster

You need a property, in London, where you can park up 3 cars.

So go find such a property.

Is it very hard to imagine that there might well be a market for properties that don't have any provision for car ownership - and which might well be priced at a discount to those that do?

Clearly the developers think there is.

bobster2

The PTAL zone system provides a measure of how good access to public transport is in an area. It is used to guide how local authorities consider planning applications. And also whether residents can buy on street parking permits. It is a not a legal system that bans off-street parking in itself.

So for example - in a PTAL 1 zone a planning application may be refused unless it includes enough parking. In a PTAL 5-6 zone an application might be refused if it includes too much parking. Or an application to drop a kerb might be declined in the PTAL 5-6 zone.

If the property has been built - and the kerb is dropped - with access to an area of private land where you could park a car - I'm not sure what the LA could do to prevent you parking on your own land? Even if this area wasn't designated for parking in the planning application. Maybe someone else will be along with an idea of the possible implications.

Section62

ReX said:

I am looking at a new build in London that has access for vehicles and enough space for parking 2-3 cars off street. 

But I just found out that the site was classed as PTAL 5, which according to Google means that car parking is not possible.

This is mentioned in the planning application for the new build. They say that the access is only for unloading vehicles and deliveries. 

Is that decision definitive or can be fixed?

It seems that a PTAL 5 property doesn't even grant on street parking. If that's true, I think it could be very hard to sell, as it is not a central area, it is not connected well, it is a relatively large house and there is no public parking available in the area. 

Don't rely on google, check with the local planning authority's website.  Each council has a slightly different policy, and where planning consent has been granted already you need to look at the detail of the consent.

If the consent for the site says parking/access is only for loading/unloading/deliveries then that is as definitive as you can get.

If a decision was made that the development should be 'car free' then it is correct that (normally) permits for on-street parking won't be allowed either.  It would be unfair on the existing users of the on-street space to have 'their' spaces used by the residents of a development which was designed to be car free.

The PTAL system is not a very good one, because it is possible for a site in inner/outer London to be near to a tube station and thus get a good score, yet have next to no public transport in the other directions.

However, if the planning consent was granted on the basis of no residential parking on the site then that has to be accepted - the house might suit someone who only ever travels where the public transport takes them (or cycles/is happy to use taxis), but someone who wants to own/hire a car needs to look elsewhere.  (There's a kind of logic to it that places which have good public transport services should be 'reserved' for those most likely to use those services)

Section62

bobster2 said:

Or an application to drop a kerb might be declined in the PTAL 5-6 zone.

If that was the basis for a highway authority to refuse an application for a dropped kerb then their decision could probably be challenged as being unlawful.

bobster2 said:

If the property has been built - and the kerb is dropped - with access to an area of private land where you could park a car - I'm not sure what the LA could do to prevent you parking on your own land? Even if this area wasn't designated for parking in the planning application. Maybe someone else will be along with an idea of the possible implications.

It would be a planning enforcement issue.  If a condition of the consent requires that any parking is only used for loading/deliveries then it would be a planning breach for the spaces to be used for residential parking.  If the council issued an enforcement notice then it would be an offence not to comply with it.  In serious cases the council could go further and get a court injunction... which would up the ante to 'contempt of court' if the owner/occupier didn't stop parking there.

sheramber

A colleague moved to such an area. There was a communal car park at the entrance to the scheme. 

As it was in the city there was plenty public transport available. 

ReX

Thank you everyone. 

To add more context: the site has dropped kerb, it has access to to the main road and it has physical off street space to park 2 cars easily or up to 4 cars with some maneuvering.

But, in the planning application documents, both on the main submission and the consultation with the neighbours, it states:

"the development would be car free as the site is PTAL 5 rated. The space for a turning head is provided near the entrance for access for deliveries and maintence. For this purpose cars would use the existing access down the next door house".

And in the consultation, in response to the concerns about traffic and parking it states "there will be no car parking on site and occupiers won't be able to apply to on street parking, as per S106 legal agreement"

To be clear: I understand about the off street veto decision, but I wonder if the decision about off street parking is final or it was just a quick path for the developer, that can be then reverted. 

If final, this would make it very hard to sell, as it will be extremely inconvenient for families (no easy trasport and no nearby public parking), it is not a central London home. 

user1977

Does the planning suggest the dropped kerbs are to allow off-street parking i.e. is the area on the plot marked as being for parking? I wonder if they just meant "other than where plots have off-street parking..."

bobster2

Section62 said:

bobster2 said:

Or an application to drop a kerb might be declined in the PTAL 5-6 zone.

If that was the basis for a highway authority to refuse an application for a dropped kerb then their decision could probably be challenged as being unlawful.

bobster2 said:

If the property has been built - and the kerb is dropped - with access to an area of private land where you could park a car - I'm not sure what the LA could do to prevent you parking on your own land? Even if this area wasn't designated for parking in the planning application. Maybe someone else will be along with an idea of the possible implications.

It would be a planning enforcement issue.  If a condition of the consent requires that any parking is only used for loading/deliveries then it would be a planning breach for the spaces to be used for residential parking.  If the council issued an enforcement notice then it would be an offence not to comply with it.  In serious cases the council could go further and get a court injunction... which would up the ante to 'contempt of court' if the owner/occupier didn't stop parking there.

Thanks for explaining. I was wondering how it would work.

ReX

user1977 said:

Does the planning suggest the dropped kerbs are to allow off-street parking i.e. is the area on the plot marked as being for parking? I wonder if they just meant "other than where plots have off-street parking..."

Beside that text, there is no other mention in the docs about parking 

Section62

user1977 said:

Does the planning suggest the dropped kerbs are to allow off-street parking i.e. is the area on the plot marked as being for parking? I wonder if they just meant "other than where plots have off-street parking..."

If the developer is stating "the development would be car free as the site is PTAL 5 rated." then it would imply there is no provision for off-street residential parking, although whether this made it into the planning decision is another matter.

However, I don't understand the meaning of "For this purpose cars would use the existing access down the next door house".