Transfer Advice Complaint - Do I have a leg to stand on here?

michael1234

Aylesbury_Duck said:

michael1234 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Isn't that the same thing, though?  Market volatility wouldn't have any effect on an in specie transfer of something like funds in a S&S ISA, so why mention it for this pension transfer unless it was a warning?  It only becomes relevant in the instance where you are out of the market for a period.

Putting the moral argument aside, it seems to me that this is the crux of any complaint you might make - that you weren't warned that you'd be out of the market for a period.  Only you can say if that's really true or not, based on any documentation you were provided with or documented communication with your advisor.  

I don't think I'd be claiming that as it isn't true but certainly there was zero focus on it.

Doesn't that sink any complaint you might make, then?

Possibly but that wouldn't be the basis of the complaint. The complaint would be that I wasn't aware that the mechanism of the transfer, the forced liquidation of the assets is itself a risk.

Nobody has yet said directly that there is just as much risk in holding as there is in selling (ignoring transfer fees)?  I thought that would be the main argument against a complaint.

And nobody has commented on whether or not an enforced sale of a bunch of investments is itself a risk or not?

I'd actually like to find a reason not to launch a complaint as it is quite time consuming and would be quite painful going over those losses. 

LHW99

And nobody has commented on whether or not an enforced sale of a bunch of investments is itself a risk or not?

Two issues IMO

1) In order to carry out the instructions to transfer the investments have to be sold. Once the go-ahead is given, that will take place at the original provider's pace. Neither you or the FA are likely to have control over it.

2) Market volatility means the "market" is "volatile" - ie it changes day by day, minute by minute largely unpredictably. Both sales & purchases will be subject to the changes.

So (again IMO)

a) You gave the instructions, as presumably you wanted the transfer to go ahead. The fact that it did go ahead (and you are pleased it did) means you accepted at that point that what you had signed for would happen.

b) You were warned markets would be volatile. Therefore you were warned (in effect) that with investments there are no guarantees of what you would get on any day / time.

I can't see what there is to complain about unless you think your original request was a bad idea - and I don't get the feeling you do, even if one or more FA's (and people here) suggested it might be.

michael1234

LHW99 said:

And nobody has commented on whether or not an enforced sale of a bunch of investments is itself a risk or not?

Two issues IMO

1) In order to carry out the instructions to transfer the investments have to be sold. Once the go-ahead is given, that will take place at the original provider's pace. Neither you or the FA are likely to have control over it.

2) Market volatility means the "market" is "volatile" - ie it changes day by day, minute by minute largely unpredictably. Both sales & purchases will be subject to the changes.

So (again IMO)

a) You gave the instructions, as presumably you wanted the transfer to go ahead. The fact that it did go ahead (and you are pleased it did) means you accepted at that point that what you had signed for would happen.

b) You were warned markets would be volatile. Therefore you were warned (in effect) that with investments there are no guarantees of what you would get on any day / time.

I can't see what there is to complain about unless you think your original request was a bad idea - and I don't get the feeling you do, even if one or more FA's (and people here) suggested it might be.

Can I ask you if someone was advised to arbitrarily liquidate their ISA Stock&Shares invesments and then buy them back over a period of weeks or months whether that person would have something to complain about? What is the difference ?

Marcon

michael1234 said:

LHW99 said:

And nobody has commented on whether or not an enforced sale of a bunch of investments is itself a risk or not?

Two issues IMO

1) In order to carry out the instructions to transfer the investments have to be sold. Once the go-ahead is given, that will take place at the original provider's pace. Neither you or the FA are likely to have control over it.

2) Market volatility means the "market" is "volatile" - ie it changes day by day, minute by minute largely unpredictably. Both sales & purchases will be subject to the changes.

So (again IMO)

a) You gave the instructions, as presumably you wanted the transfer to go ahead. The fact that it did go ahead (and you are pleased it did) means you accepted at that point that what you had signed for would happen.

b) You were warned markets would be volatile. Therefore you were warned (in effect) that with investments there are no guarantees of what you would get on any day / time.

I can't see what there is to complain about unless you think your original request was a bad idea - and I don't get the feeling you do, even if one or more FA's (and people here) suggested it might be.

Can I ask you if someone was advised to arbitrarily liquidate their ISA Stock&Shares invesments and then buy them back over a period of weeks or months whether that person would have something to complain about? What is the difference ?

What does that have to do with anything? You were determined to transfer and had a time limit by which you had to accept the CETV if you wished to proceed. The ceding scheme then had 3 months to make that transfer, and neither your nor your adviser could dictate the pace at which they moved.

Interesting how you claim to want a reason not to complain but have now ignored two posts from me providing a very good reason... Sounds as if you are determined to build up a case for alleged distress and inconvenience.

My sympathy to your adviser.

bolwin1

For someone who claims "I'd actually like to find a reason not to launch a complaint as it is quite time consuming and would be quite painful going over those losses", you're spending a lot of time disagreeing with posters who are giving you reasons. 

Marcon

HappyHarry said:

Oh my giddy aunt.

If any new posters asks why DB transfers are so expensive, I shall point them towards this thread, and the OP's previous thread where he wanted a DB transfer and was frustrated about the time, cost and effort involved.

I remember the OP commenting at the time: All this I presume because there are some folk out there who if they lose money want to blame their IFA for bad advice and get reimbursed. I suspect there are lots of threads on this topic but my gut feeling says that the buck should stop with the individual - he/she can pay for advice but the final decision should be with the person receiving the advise and not the advisor. 

Also the OP realised this market event had happened in April, and commented Not that it matters because I shan't be making a complaint about it. Its those complaints that have left us in the situation we are today. 

And yet here we are, barely four months later when the OP is asking whether or not it is worth trying to gain compensation from the adviser due to the markets not behaving favourably.

Is it any surprise advisers just don't want to do this kind of work?

Previous thread here: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6556908/pension-advisor-would-want-21-000-for-a-failed-transfer/p1

Thanks for this post from @HappyHarry are now at a record 51 and rising...

OP, do yourself a favour and take note of the all the sane input given on this thread. You were absolutely determined to transfer and you've done so. You now have to live with the consequences.

dunstonh

Can I ask you if someone was advised to arbitrarily liquidate their ISA Stock&Shares invesments and then buy them back over a period of weeks or months whether that person would have something to complain about? What is the difference ?

a) why would they sell them to buy back identical investments?
b) If they cannot buy identical investments, then yes, it is normal to liquidate the holdings to allow a cash transfer.

You are still ignoring the dates and the fact you probably haven't made a loss. 
Lets help you with that:



The chart shows a US equity fund that effectively tracks the S&P500. It peaked 23rd January.   So, between then and the end 31st March, it was already down 12.68%.

You say you sold out in early April and didn't reinvest to weeks later.     So, below shows selling out on 4th April and the loss that continued whilst you were out of the market to rejoin "weeks later".



From peak on 23rd Jan to trough on 22nd April, the loss was 21.74% and you were out of the market for around 7% of that loss.   




You are fixated on Trumps liberation day of 2nd April but you can see that the majority of the winter/spring drop had already happened by Liberation day. 

Give us the sale date on the existing pension and the purchase date on the new one and I will use those dates.  

QrizB

OP has said repeatedly they still haven't reinvested all the cash they transferred, so they've missed out on a fair wedge of growth/rebound since April.

eastcorkram

QrizB said:

OP has said repeatedly they still haven't reinvested all the cash they transferred, so they've missed out on a fair wedge of growth/rebound since April.

They have, but that's their own decision surely. 

dunstonh

QrizB said:

OP has said repeatedly they still haven't reinvested all the cash they transferred, so they've missed out on a fair wedge of growth/rebound since April.

The OP also said:  ". I was not able to buy back into the market until the transfer completed which was weeks later."

So they had the ability to buy back when they wanted from that point.  However, they decided to phase back in and they have accepted that it was their decision.

The key thing from the statements is that the OP seems to believe that the markets only fell from the point they were out of the market and not before.  When the actual dates and known and shown, the difference in the period from sale of funds on the existing pension to transfer to the new pension (which is bit the OP is not happy about) maybe so little that this could put the whole thing to bed.