E.on slashing export SEG rate from 16.5p to 3p

Norfolk_guy

Scot_39 said:

Whether solar exporters like it or not - during most of the day time in summer - unless its particulary still and wind in one of its regular dips - like the recent winter and summer low floors of 5-10% of rated output - the UK now has an excess of generating capacity to meet current demand.

Grid level, local distribution level etc (very few solar farms are true national grid level - at one stage last year iirc just 2 fed in at 275 / 400 kV grid level).

Paying you high SEG rates all day - just encourages you not to use your own or store your own power for later in the day / night - and to export into a saturated marketplace - where renewables wind - and this year NESO announced Feb to Jun - even commercial solar farms now being paid - are now all too regularly being paid constraint payments - not to generate.  

Seagreen - the biggest wind farm in Scotland - online fully from 2024 iirc - already holds the infamous honour of being paid constraint payments 71% of the time, (and getting was it around 40% of the total paid to Scotlands c15GW of farms)  for some or all of its 1.1GW capacity.

Last year those payments reached £1bn for first time ever - nearly 4x 2 years ago - by some estimates - and 4x 3 years ago by others.

(Although some anti wind sites and media have perhaps deliberately used wording as constraint and figures for total balancing costs.)

Balancing including £3bn of grid thermal (old NG ESO) but also load balancing constraint payments + gas etc standby / spin up etc balancing costs - total forecast £8bn - by 2030 (new NESO figures).

Your remedy

As a home user you might be able to move onto a more dynamic TOU export tariff with better certainly peak early evening rates - if have smart meter.

Although earlier this year some of those best rates dropped - and one of the Octupus dropped normal day time but boosted peak 4-7pm demand time iirc.  Cannot remember actual rates though.

Not so sure about the business contract though. Especially if tied in.  But I suspect they will have the right to vary the rates as they see fit within it.

E.ON haven’t really changed their rates, one might expect a slightly different rate after a while, they have completely changed their policy. 

The best rate I can find if not buying electric from the same supplier as SEG is 6p.

so E.ON has me screwed over until May 2027 when I can change business energy suppliers. 

Have raised formal complaints with E.ON and escalated those and requested deadlock letters. 

mmmmikey

Norfolk_guy said:

Scot_39 said:

Whether solar exporters like it or not - during most of the day time in summer - unless its particulary still and wind in one of its regular dips - like the recent winter and summer low floors of 5-10% of rated output - the UK now has an excess of generating capacity to meet current demand.

Grid level, local distribution level etc (very few solar farms are true national grid level - at one stage last year iirc just 2 fed in at 275 / 400 kV grid level).

Paying you high SEG rates all day - just encourages you not to use your own or store your own power for later in the day / night - and to export into a saturated marketplace - where renewables wind - and this year NESO announced Feb to Jun - even commercial solar farms now being paid - are now all too regularly being paid constraint payments - not to generate.  

Seagreen - the biggest wind farm in Scotland - online fully from 2024 iirc - already holds the infamous honour of being paid constraint payments 71% of the time, (and getting was it around 40% of the total paid to Scotlands c15GW of farms)  for some or all of its 1.1GW capacity.

Last year those payments reached £1bn for first time ever - nearly 4x 2 years ago - by some estimates - and 4x 3 years ago by others.

(Although some anti wind sites and media have perhaps deliberately used wording as constraint and figures for total balancing costs.)

Balancing including £3bn of grid thermal (old NG ESO) but also load balancing constraint payments + gas etc standby / spin up etc balancing costs - total forecast £8bn - by 2030 (new NESO figures).

Your remedy

As a home user you might be able to move onto a more dynamic TOU export tariff with better certainly peak early evening rates - if have smart meter.

Although earlier this year some of those best rates dropped - and one of the Octupus dropped normal day time but boosted peak 4-7pm demand time iirc.  Cannot remember actual rates though.

Not so sure about the business contract though. Especially if tied in.  But I suspect they will have the right to vary the rates as they see fit within it.

E.ON haven’t really changed their rates, one might expect a slightly different rate after a while, they have completely changed their policy. 

The best rate I can find if not buying electric from the same supplier as SEG is 6p.

so E.ON has me screwed over until May 2027 when I can change business energy suppliers. 

Have raised formal complaints with E.ON and escalated those and requested deadlock letters. 

I can sympathise with your position but is it really unreasonable for them to change their policy? It sounds to me like you've benefitted from a higher rate than you might have expected so far, no problem in making the most of it but surely you must have realised all things that are almost too good to be true come to an end? And looked at the contract when you signed up? What were you being paid previously? What does the contract say?

Norfolk_guy

mmmmikey said:

Norfolk_guy said:

Scot_39 said:

Whether solar exporters like it or not - during most of the day time in summer - unless its particulary still and wind in one of its regular dips - like the recent winter and summer low floors of 5-10% of rated output - the UK now has an excess of generating capacity to meet current demand.

Grid level, local distribution level etc (very few solar farms are true national grid level - at one stage last year iirc just 2 fed in at 275 / 400 kV grid level).

Paying you high SEG rates all day - just encourages you not to use your own or store your own power for later in the day / night - and to export into a saturated marketplace - where renewables wind - and this year NESO announced Feb to Jun - even commercial solar farms now being paid - are now all too regularly being paid constraint payments - not to generate.  

Seagreen - the biggest wind farm in Scotland - online fully from 2024 iirc - already holds the infamous honour of being paid constraint payments 71% of the time, (and getting was it around 40% of the total paid to Scotlands c15GW of farms)  for some or all of its 1.1GW capacity.

Last year those payments reached £1bn for first time ever - nearly 4x 2 years ago - by some estimates - and 4x 3 years ago by others.

(Although some anti wind sites and media have perhaps deliberately used wording as constraint and figures for total balancing costs.)

Balancing including £3bn of grid thermal (old NG ESO) but also load balancing constraint payments + gas etc standby / spin up etc balancing costs - total forecast £8bn - by 2030 (new NESO figures).

Your remedy

As a home user you might be able to move onto a more dynamic TOU export tariff with better certainly peak early evening rates - if have smart meter.

Although earlier this year some of those best rates dropped - and one of the Octupus dropped normal day time but boosted peak 4-7pm demand time iirc.  Cannot remember actual rates though.

Not so sure about the business contract though. Especially if tied in.  But I suspect they will have the right to vary the rates as they see fit within it.

E.ON haven’t really changed their rates, one might expect a slightly different rate after a while, they have completely changed their policy. 

The best rate I can find if not buying electric from the same supplier as SEG is 6p.

so E.ON has me screwed over until May 2027 when I can change business energy suppliers. 

Have raised formal complaints with E.ON and escalated those and requested deadlock letters. 

I can sympathise with your position but is it really unreasonable for them to change their policy? It sounds to me like you've benefitted from a higher rate than you might have expected so far, no problem in making the most of it but surely you must have realised all things that are almost too good to be true come to an end? And looked at the contract when you signed up? What were you being paid previously? What does the contract say?

When most larger suppliers are offering similar SEG rates for existing customers, I don’t think it falls into the “too good to be true” category. 

E.ON were our first business energy supplier once the PV was installed, specifically went to them as they had the best combination of SEG and energy prices. 

When you invest £150k+ into a PV system you take everything into account you know about at the time. 

As I mentioned, you might expect a fluctuating SEG rate, but maybe not a complete policy change part the way through your contract. 

Qyburn

Has that 15kW upper limit only recently been added,  or was it always in the terms but just not enforced?  

Norfolk_guy

Qyburn said:

Has that 15kW upper limit only recently been added,  or was it always in the terms but just not enforced?  

No, it’s a new thing they introduced for new SEG customers several months ago and forgot to mention it to all their existing SEG customers until today apparently 🤣

mmmmikey

Norfolk_guy said:

mmmmikey said:

Norfolk_guy said:

Scot_39 said:

Whether solar exporters like it or not - during most of the day time in summer - unless its particulary still and wind in one of its regular dips - like the recent winter and summer low floors of 5-10% of rated output - the UK now has an excess of generating capacity to meet current demand.

Grid level, local distribution level etc (very few solar farms are true national grid level - at one stage last year iirc just 2 fed in at 275 / 400 kV grid level).

Paying you high SEG rates all day - just encourages you not to use your own or store your own power for later in the day / night - and to export into a saturated marketplace - where renewables wind - and this year NESO announced Feb to Jun - even commercial solar farms now being paid - are now all too regularly being paid constraint payments - not to generate.  

Seagreen - the biggest wind farm in Scotland - online fully from 2024 iirc - already holds the infamous honour of being paid constraint payments 71% of the time, (and getting was it around 40% of the total paid to Scotlands c15GW of farms)  for some or all of its 1.1GW capacity.

Last year those payments reached £1bn for first time ever - nearly 4x 2 years ago - by some estimates - and 4x 3 years ago by others.

(Although some anti wind sites and media have perhaps deliberately used wording as constraint and figures for total balancing costs.)

Balancing including £3bn of grid thermal (old NG ESO) but also load balancing constraint payments + gas etc standby / spin up etc balancing costs - total forecast £8bn - by 2030 (new NESO figures).

Your remedy

As a home user you might be able to move onto a more dynamic TOU export tariff with better certainly peak early evening rates - if have smart meter.

Although earlier this year some of those best rates dropped - and one of the Octupus dropped normal day time but boosted peak 4-7pm demand time iirc.  Cannot remember actual rates though.

Not so sure about the business contract though. Especially if tied in.  But I suspect they will have the right to vary the rates as they see fit within it.

E.ON haven’t really changed their rates, one might expect a slightly different rate after a while, they have completely changed their policy. 

The best rate I can find if not buying electric from the same supplier as SEG is 6p.

so E.ON has me screwed over until May 2027 when I can change business energy suppliers. 

Have raised formal complaints with E.ON and escalated those and requested deadlock letters. 

I can sympathise with your position but is it really unreasonable for them to change their policy? It sounds to me like you've benefitted from a higher rate than you might have expected so far, no problem in making the most of it but surely you must have realised all things that are almost too good to be true come to an end? And looked at the contract when you signed up? What were you being paid previously? What does the contract say?

When most larger suppliers are offering similar SEG rates for existing customers, I don’t think it falls into the “too good to be true” category. 

E.ON were our first business energy supplier once the PV was installed, specifically went to them as they had the best combination of SEG and energy prices. 

When you invest £150k+ into a PV system you take everything into account you know about at the time. 

As I mentioned, you might expect a fluctuating SEG rate, but maybe not a complete policy change part the way through your contract. 

Thanks - that makes a lot of sense in relation to my "too good to be true" comment. I was comparing it with historical export rates and those I was getting as part of the FIT contract and by those standards it's a cracking deal. 

As far as taking everything into account you know about at the time that obviously makes sense, but it still comes down to polishing your crystal ball and using it to make a judgement about what will happen to rates in the future. As pointed out in an earlier post, there's an awful lot of new solar capacity coming on stream or set to come on stream in the near future which will boost supply and reduce prices. You're competing with large scale solar farms and that's going to be difficult. Also, the current export rates do seem un-reallistically high to me - I can currently buy electricity overnight at less than half the price I export it for. By the time you take margins into account it seems likely to me that these kind of rates are unsustainable. So I fear what you may have done is base your costs and projections on a marketing blip focused at gaining domestic customers and in the long term rates may be significantly lower, particularly at your scale. But I hope I am wrong.

You talk about a policy change part the way through your contract. As a business person you'll know that the contract is what you agree to and what counts. I'm guessing what may have happened here is that you have separate contracts for your imports and exports, and although E.On haven't breached either contract you're left worse off than expected because you had expected the contracts to work hand in hand? Unfortunately, although I can understand and sympathise with your position I suspect you're going to find that (to use the technical expression) you're stuffed unless you can point to something contractual that says otherwise. Again, I hope I'm wrong.

Scot_39

15 kW is though 4x the normal limit for base approval for domestic install rating though.

So even if new - and then applied retrospectively - I suspect that their wont be many domestic installs being caught.

Which iirc is based on 16A so 3.68 kW if use UK nominal 230V after EU harmonisation of ranges.

Re business fix - have you checked their exact promises and their freedoms to vary prices under the contract. 80% plus 13.5p in one go does seem like rather a large step change.

But old 16.5p is also far higher than the wholesale rate offered to many new solar farms - the AR7 prices arent in yet - but AR6 went for around £50/MWh - 5p - 2012 pricing, with indexing closer to £70+ - so about half that rate.

Are you fixed term at home as well ?

If so would the rate drop allow you to argue for early release without paying any exit fees ?

You could then say go to flux - with its 27p+ 4-7pm rate and 9p+ rest of day rate - or any other better deals.

Norfolk_guy

Scot_39 said:

15 kW is though 4x the normal limit for base approval for domestic install rating though.

So even if new - and then applied retrospectively - I suspect that their wont be many domestic installs being caught.

Which iirc is based on 16A so 3.68 kW if use UK nominal 230V after EU harmonisation of ranges.

Re business fix - have you checked their exact promises and their freedoms to vary prices under the contract. 80% plus 13.5p in one go does seem like rather a large step change.

But old 16.5p is also far higher than the wholesale rate offered to many new solar farms - the AR7 prices arent in yet - but AR6 went for around £50/MWh - 5p - 2012 pricing, with indexing closer to £70+ - so about half that rate.

Are you fixed term at home as well ?

If so would the rate drop allow you to argue for early release without paying any exit fees ?

You could then say go to flux - with its 27p+ 4-7pm rate and 9p+ rest of day rate - or any other better deals.

Unfortunately, all of the attractive SEG rates only apply to electric buying customers, my company is locked in until May 2027 with E.on with no option for an early release. 

Then you have to filter out all all the electric suppliers who don’t want 1/2hourly business customers (supplies bigger than 100Amps)

Then that doesn’t leave too many options unfortunately. 

QrizB

Whenever people get all excited about payback periods and total returns from domestic solar PV we do try to temper their man-maths by reminding them that SEG tariffs aren't guaranteed. With wholesale electricity typically being under £100/MWh (10p/kWh) for the last year or so, the days of 15p SEG tariffs must surely be numbered.

Sorry this doesn't really help you Norfolk_guy, but it's something your business plan should've considered before you made your investment decision.

Edit to add: the writing has been on the wall since 2023:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/80076314/#Comment_80076314