Is the company responsible for collecting large faulty items?

doveman

dumpster_fire2025 said:

The AliExpress rules which would govern this transaction state "please contact us immediately and return the item" which I'd say is an agreement that the buyer is to return the item, not "make them available for collection."

https://www.aliexpress.com/ssr/300000437/PinKTaDpEb?spm=a2g0o.service-mindset.sitefooter.3.7739CECCCECCEE&disableNav=YES&pha_manifest=ssr&_immersiveMode=true

I'm not convinced that a sentence which contains the words "return the item" can constitute an agreement by the customer that the default position under the CRA, whereby the trader has to collect faulty goods, does not apply and that they have accepted that they will have to arrange a courier to collect the goods and bear the costs, and hope that the trader reimburses them.

In any event, the Return and Refund Policy link on the product page doesn't link to that page, it links to this one https://www.aliexpress.com/p/service-mindset/index.html?_immersiveMode=true&_fullscreenMode=yes&moneyFormat=￡1.00&deliveryDays=40

which says "If you experience any issues, you can apply for one of the following compensation...Refund if items arrive damaged - Apply for a refund if any items you ordered arrive damaged". That sentence doesn't say anything about returning the faulty goods.

Below that it says "Not satisfied with your order? You can return it within the order protection period. The first return on each order is free (up to 5 times per month)" but that applies if the customer is not satisfied with the goods, not if they're faulty and the fact that it says the first return on each order is free seems to indicate that this section doesn't apply to faulty goods, as returns of faulty goods always have to be free.

If you click "View more" under that, it goes to this page https://www.aliexpress.com/ssr/300000437/PpfKdkTDAZ?disableNav=YES&pha_manifest=ssr&_immersiveMode=true which indicates that the default position is that a return label will be provided and a pick up arranged, and it says "In some cases a return label will not be available and you will pay a shipping fee first before returning the item. Once your order refund is issued, please contact us so that we can refund the shipping fee via coupon".

I don't think it's lawful to give customers a coupon for their costs of returning faulty items rather than cash, so that's another indication that this policy is unlawful, or that it doesn't apply to faulty goods, but in any event, where it indicates that the default position is collection, I don't think a trader saying somewhere on their website that a return label might not always be provided could be taken as an agreement by the customer that faulty goods will not be collected and they will be responsible for returning the item and bearing the costs, which may be refunded by way of a coupon.

dumpster_fire2025

doveman said:

dumpster_fire2025 said:

The AliExpress rules which would govern this transaction state "please contact us immediately and return the item" which I'd say is an agreement that the buyer is to return the item, not "make them available for collection."

https://www.aliexpress.com/ssr/300000437/PinKTaDpEb?spm=a2g0o.service-mindset.sitefooter.3.7739CECCCECCEE&disableNav=YES&pha_manifest=ssr&_immersiveMode=true

I'm not convinced that a sentence which contains the words "return the item" can constitute an agreement by the customer that the default position under the CRA, whereby the trader has to collect faulty goods, does not apply and that they have accepted that they will have to arrange a courier to collect the goods and bear the costs, and hope that the trader reimburses them.

In any event, the Return and Refund Policy link on the product page doesn't link to that page, it links to this one https://www.aliexpress.com/p/service-mindset/index.html?_immersiveMode=true&_fullscreenMode=yes&moneyFormat=￡1.00&deliveryDays=40

which says "If you experience any issues, you can apply for one of the following compensation...Refund if items arrive damaged - Apply for a refund if any items you ordered arrive damaged". That sentence doesn't say anything about returning the faulty goods.

Below that it says "Not satisfied with your order? You can return it within the order protection period. The first return on each order is free (up to 5 times per month)" but that applies if the customer is not satisfied with the goods, not if they're faulty and the fact that it says the first return on each order is free seems to indicate that this section doesn't apply to faulty goods, as returns of faulty goods always have to be free.

If you click "View more" under that, it goes to this page https://www.aliexpress.com/ssr/300000437/PpfKdkTDAZ?disableNav=YES&pha_manifest=ssr&_immersiveMode=true which indicates that the default position is that a return label will be provided and a pick up arranged, and it says "In some cases a return label will not be available and you will pay a shipping fee first before returning the item. Once your order refund is issued, please contact us so that we can refund the shipping fee via coupon".

I don't think it's lawful to give customers a coupon for their costs of returning faulty items rather than cash, so that's another indication that this policy is unlawful, or that it doesn't apply to faulty goods, but in any event, where it indicates that the default position is collection, I don't think a trader saying somewhere on their website that a return label might not always be provided could be taken as an agreement by the customer that faulty goods will not be collected and they will be responsible for returning the item and bearing the costs, which may be refunded by way of a coupon.

Return means literally to send back. "Return to sender" doesn't mean "make it available for collection if they happen to want it back." It means to actively send it back to the originator.

You can't passively return something. At that point you're "making available for collection."

I know you desperately want this AliExpress seller to pick up your junk AC unit but this is a case of caveat emptor when in comes to AliExpress. The Chinese play fast and loose when it comes to our legislation and the less you have to do with them, the better it will be for your bank balance.

If you are a User of any of the Sites, and you are from a place outside mainland China, United States of America, South Korea, or the Relevant Jurisdictions (as defined below), you are contracting with Alibaba.com Singapore E-Commerce Private Limited (incorporated in Singapore with Company Reg. No. 200720572D). As some or part of the Services may be supported and provided by affiliates of AliExpress.com, AliExpress.com may delegate some of the Services to its affiliates.

Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the forgoing provisions in this clause 2.1, if you are a User, and you are resident in or access and use the AliExpress Sites from any of the Relevant Jurisdictions (the “AliExpress Relevant Jurisdiction User”), you are contracting with AliExpress CIS Holding Pte. Ltd. 1.  (incorporated in Singapore with Company Reg. No. 201917627W). “Relevant Jurisdictions” shall mean the Russian Federation, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan.

So since you're not in any of those countries you'll need to look up Singaporean legislation vis-a-vis your return rights.

Good luck!

ThumbRemote

Given the recent thread about returning a fridge bought from Temu, I'd be very wary about the likelihood of getting any money back - original purchase cost or return shipping. Forcing the customer to pay for return shipping just sounds like another way to avoid refunding. 

DullGreyGuy

A_Geordie said:

DullGreyGuy said:

However operationally thats how it works... there are retailers that arrange for the return of an item under the CCR but then deduct the cost of the return from the refund which is the mirror of the consumer having to arrange the return but then being refunded for it despite both peaces of legislation stating "bearing costs". 

"Bear the cost" simply means they have responsibility for the cost, its not as nuanced as saying they must directly pay it themselves and in no way can get another party to do it and then refund them etc. Its also not even on an ultimate basis, in Marley -v- Rawlings & Others which was a contested will where the deceased had disinherited their biological sons (Rawlings) and instead left everything to Marley but the solicitors had errored and the parents had signed each other's wills and not their own.

The judge stated that the solicitor should bear all the cost of the will dispute process because it was their error that raised the question on the validity of the wills however its the solicitors PI insurers that actually paid the money, who the judgement discusses and doesnt change the language that the bearer of the cost is the solicitor even though the insurer will pay. 

A judge making a statement that a law firm bears the cost in a judgment cannot be used to make the same argument when interpreting a contract or legislation. It's all about context, so it is nuanced.

The reference to bearing costs is scattered in a number of places in the CRA, including: 

Section 23 (Right to repair or replacement for goods)

(2) If the consumer requires the trader to repair or replace the goods, the trader must:
...
(b) bear any necessary costs incurred in doing so (including in particular the cost of any labour, materials or postage).

Section 43 (Right to repair or replacement for digital cotent)

(2) If the consumer requires the trader to repair or replace the digital content, the trader must:
...
(b) bear any necessary costs incurred in doing so (including in particular the cost of any labour, materials or postage).

Section 46 (Remedy for damage to device or digital content)

(3) To repair the damage in accordance with this subsection, the trader must:
...
(b) bear any necessary costs incurred in repairing the damage (including in particular the cost of any labour, materials or postage).

Section 55 (Right to repear performance)

(2) If the consumer requires such repeat performance, the trader:
...
(b) must bear any necessary costs incurred in doing so (including in particular the cost of any labour or materials)

If the interpretation is that the consumer must pay to return the goods and obtain a refund from the trader once they've received it, then surely the same interpretation must apply in all of the above sections, which is if the consumer wants a repair or a replacement, the consumer is going to have to pay for it first and then be refunded.

It's not "have to" but it's an option, though not one most retailers will follow because they will have suppliers who give them preferential rates. 

Were the merchant not to fulfil their legal obligations in the majority of cases you would do exactly that, pay for the repair yourself and then litigate to attempt to recover the costs back. In principle you can litigate off a quote but then you run the material risk that during the fix further issues are identified and given you can't litigate twice for the same thing you're left out of pocket. 

A_Geordie

DullGreyGuy said:

It's not "have to" but it's an option, though not one most retailers will follow because they will have suppliers who give them preferential rates. 

Were the merchant not to fulfil their legal obligations in the majority of cases you would do exactly that, pay for the repair yourself and then litigate to attempt to recover the costs back. In principle you can litigate off a quote but then you run the material risk that during the fix further issues are identified and given you can't litigate twice for the same thing you're left out of pocket. 

Of course you can repair yourself and then sue afterwards if the retailer refuses but whether the duty is optional or mandatory will dictate whether the consumer can treat the contract as repudiated and not just sue to put themself back in the position prior to the breach but also consequential losses, if any. In view, it's mandatory and if the retailer refuses, that's the risk they run. 

born_again

Has OP actually given any timeline of purchase & when faulty?

doveman

born_again said:

Has OP actually given any timeline of purchase & when faulty?

It was delivered on June 27 and it's been faulty since I received it.

doveman

dumpster_fire2025 said:

Return means literally to send back. "Return to sender" doesn't mean "make it available for collection if they happen to want it back." It means to actively send it back to the originator. You can't passively return something. At that point you're "making available for collection." I know you desperately want this AliExpress seller to pick up your junk AC unit but this is a case of caveat emptor when in comes to AliExpress. The Chinese play fast and loose when it comes to our legislation and the less you have to do with them, the better it will be for your bank balance.

If you are a User of any of the Sites, and you are from a place outside mainland China, United States of America, South Korea, or the Relevant Jurisdictions (as defined below), you are contracting with Alibaba.com Singapore E-Commerce Private Limited (incorporated in Singapore with Company Reg. No. 200720572D). As some or part of the Services may be supported and provided by affiliates of AliExpress.com, AliExpress.com may delegate some of the Services to its affiliates.

Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the forgoing provisions in this clause 2.1, if you are a User, and you are resident in or access and use the AliExpress Sites from any of the Relevant Jurisdictions (the “AliExpress Relevant Jurisdiction User”), you are contracting with AliExpress CIS Holding Pte. Ltd. 1.  (incorporated in Singapore with Company Reg. No. 201917627W). “Relevant Jurisdictions” shall mean the Russian Federation, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan.

So since you're not in any of those countries you'll need to look up Singaporean legislation vis-a-vis your return rights.

Good luck!

You're ignoring the fact that some of the pages say that normally faulty goods will be collected. If they all said that the customer has to return faulty goods, it might be arguable that the customer has agreed to that (although I think that's debatable if it's not in the T&C) but where some pages say that the default position is that faulty goods will be collected, I don't think a reference to "return" on another page can amount to an agreement by the customer that they will return any faulty goods and bear the cost of doing so, and possibly be refunded if the trader decides to refund them.

Also, at the end of this page https://www.aliexpress.com/p/buyerprotection/index.html?spm=a2g0o.home.1000001.11.650c21453YnwPH it says:

"Final considerations to note

In certain countries, stores must comply with other relevant legal requirements (warranty, return, etc.) that may be applicable depending on your location as a shopper.

For instance, in most EU countries you will generally have a 2-year legal conformity warranty and a 14-day right to return. Learn more here: Statutory Rights For EU Consumers."

The T&C for UK customers are here https://terms.alicdn.com/legal-agreement/terms/suit_bu1_aliexpress/suit_bu1_aliexpress202109291856_35940.html?spm=a2g0o.tm1000021225.8687196050.2.22326f3dl5eYiq&aecmd=true and they don't say anything about customers having to return faulty goods.

Alderbank

The T&Cs you quote above are for platform transactions.

Those are where you buy the goods from the seller and AliExpress provide transaction services - they collect payment from you, pay any UK fees such as VAT, convert to the seller's local currency and pass the payment (less AliExpress charges) to them. AliExpress also store the stock in their warehouse and deliver to customers. The sales contract however is between you and the seller.

Transaction Services. AliExpress.com provides an online transaction platform and ancillary services on the Sites which allow Members to conclude online transactions for products or services within the Sites subject to the terms of this Contract. In particular, it will allow you to place, pay, conclude and receive fulfillment of orders for the online provision of products and services within the Sites

For the avoidance of doubt, each Online Transaction is made by and between you and a third-party seller only and AliExpress.com shall not be considered as a party to such Online Transaction, nor shall AliExpress.com be deemed to represent you or the seller in such Online Transaction.

AliExpress is a large company and also through another part of the organisation sells stuff itself directly to buyers. It operates just like Amazon and Amazon Marketplace.

Who exactly is your contract of sale with? That contract is where your consumer rights are.

doveman

Alderbank said:

The T&Cs you quote above are for platform transactions.

Those are where you buy the goods from the seller and AliExpress provide transaction services - they collect payment from you, pay any UK fees such as VAT, convert to the seller's local currency and pass the payment (less AliExpress charges) to them. AliExpress also store the stock in their warehouse and deliver to customers. The sales contract however is between you and the seller.

Transaction Services. AliExpress.com provides an online transaction platform and ancillary services on the Sites which allow Members to conclude online transactions for products or services within the Sites subject to the terms of this Contract. In particular, it will allow you to place, pay, conclude and receive fulfillment of orders for the online provision of products and services within the Sites

For the avoidance of doubt, each Online Transaction is made by and between you and a third-party seller only and AliExpress.com shall not be considered as a party to such Online Transaction, nor shall AliExpress.com be deemed to represent you or the seller in such Online Transaction.

AliExpress is a large company and also through another part of the organisation sells stuff itself directly to buyers. It operates just like Amazon and Amazon Marketplace.

Who exactly is your contract of sale with? That contract is where your consumer rights are.

On the item page here https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005008599315809.html?spm=a2g0o.refund_spm.0.0.5f8872e4aecSzA&_gl=1*kfdz4l*_gcl_au*MTczNTY1MzEwNi4xNzUwNzc1MzM2*_ga*MTkwNTI2MzUxNS4xNzUwNzc1MzM2*_ga_VED1YSGNC7*czE3NTE1NDI0NzQkbzkkZzEkdDE3NTE1NDQ4MDckajYwJGwwJGgw#nav-specification it says

"Sold by Aosom MHSTAR UK Store (Trader)" so I think my contract is with that UK company.

Below that it says "Aliexpress committment" and it has a link to a Return and Refund policy, so that appears to be an Aliexpress policy, which is in addition to and doesn't replace my consumer rights under my contract with the seller. Nowhere have I agreed with the seller that I will return any faulty goods, instead of having them collected as per the default position under the Consumer Rights Act.