Does £600 for planning permission to convert two windows into one sound right?

Section62

Grumpy_chap said:

...
Why does the OP (or the Planning Department) not consider that the change to the windows falls under PD Class A?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d77afc8e5274a27cdb2c9e9/190910_Tech_Guide_for_publishing.pdf

The link is to "Permitted development rights for householders"

The OP's property is a flat.

silvercar

TELLIT01 said:

If the work required planning permission it really doesn't matter whether you agree with the cost or not.  You have to pay it or risk action for breaking planning rules.

The risk may be very low. There is always the option of indemnity policies when you sell, which would be a lot cheaper.

Section62

silvercar said:

TELLIT01 said:

If the work required planning permission it really doesn't matter whether you agree with the cost or not.  You have to pay it or risk action for breaking planning rules.

The risk may be very low. There is always the option of indemnity policies when you sell, which would be a lot cheaper.

But it is a legal requirement to obtain planning consent where it is required, and failure to do so can result in planning enforcement action.  And failure to comply with a planning enforcement notice is a criminal offence.  Hopefully the forum isn't encouraging people to do unlawful things, no matter how remote the chances of enforcement might be.  That isn't moneysaving.

Since the OP appears to have been in touch with the council already then an indemnity policy probably wouldn't be an option.

Furthermore, as there is an upstairs(?) flat and possible freeholder in the mix as well then I doubt the risk would be very low.  Work which potentially affects the structural support of the upstairs flat which isn't being done by the book would be a red flag... and reporting the OP to the planning authority would be one way the upstairs flat owner/freeholder could respond if the OP were to ignore their legal obligations.

Heliocentric

Section62 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

...
Why does the OP (or the Planning Department) not consider that the change to the windows falls under PD Class A?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d77afc8e5274a27cdb2c9e9/190910_Tech_Guide_for_publishing.pdf

The link is to "Permitted development rights for householders"

The OP's property is a flat.

No it's a house. Sorry, I think I wasn't clear. Parents bought the house in the 70s. Beforehand it had been converted into flats (probably bedsits) but was sold to them as a house. He bought the whole thing as a house. There are still elements today that look like a flat (e.g. a toilet is separate from the bathroom and as I said the outside toilet was removed). The bathroom is also in the wrong place, a surveyor told me last year (it should be a bedroom but when sold to my parents it was a kitchen). So there were two kitchens, two toilets and so on...

Heliocentric

Grumpy_chap said:

Usually, changes to fenestration (technical planning term for windows) do not require planning permission.

Sometimes, there is a restriction that means PP is required - either area designation such as "conservation area" or a specific "article 4 direction" that is particular to the property.

We had an extension which was approved but came with a specific restriction about the fenestration.  When we wanted to change the windows, we duly applied for PP.  The Planning Dept struggled to process the application and did not believe we were simply changing windows, but did then approve regardless.

Why does the OP (or the Planning Department) not consider that the change to the windows falls under PD Class A?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d77afc8e5274a27cdb2c9e9/190910_Tech_Guide_for_publishing.pdf

I'm just doing what they told me to do. I don't know what the right thing to do is tbh. Do I just send this link to the council? So it should cost nothing as it's permitted? I don't understand how it features in that list but also in the planning permission application list.

PD Class A:

Class A covers the enlargement, improvement or alterations to a house such as rear or side extensions as well as general alterations such as new windows and doors. There is a neighbour consultation scheme for larger rear extensions under Class A, paragraph A.1(g).

Planning Permission List:

Section62

Heliocentric said:

Section62 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

...
Why does the OP (or the Planning Department) not consider that the change to the windows falls under PD Class A?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d77afc8e5274a27cdb2c9e9/190910_Tech_Guide_for_publishing.pdf

The link is to "Permitted development rights for householders"

The OP's property is a flat.

No it's a house. Sorry, I think I wasn't clear. Parents bought the house in the 70s. Beforehand it had been converted into flats (probably bedsits) but was sold to them as a house. He bought the whole thing as a house. There are still elements today that look like a flat (e.g. a toilet is separate from the bathroom and as I said the outside toilet was removed). The bathroom is also in the wrong place, a surveyor told me last year (it should be a bedroom but when sold to my parents it was a kitchen). So there were two kitchens, two toilets and so on...

If it was converted to flats though the council may have the property on the planning system as flats, unless your parents applied for consent to turn it back into a single dwelling.

Heliocentric said:

Grumpy_chap said:

I'm just doing what they told me to do. I don't know what the right thing to do is tbh. Do I just send this link to the council? So it should cost nothing as it's permitted? I don't understand how it features in that list but also in the planning permission application list.
...

You don't need to send the link to the council.  They will know about permitted development rights already.

Why it features in both lists is because work like installing a new window fits the meaning of 'development' in the Town and Country Planning Act 1990, and this means planning consent is required.  Hence it is shown in the application list.

However, as explained in an earlier post, some types of 'development' in specific circumstances have been granted consent already via the permitted development scheme.  If the work being done complies with all the requirements of PD (e.g. is a house, not in a conservation area, not listed, no relevant planning conditions) then an application for consent isn't required, because consent has already been given by the Secretary of State.

The problem then is working out whether you have permitted development rights to do what you want to do.  The only definitive answer you'll get is from the planning authority via a 'lawful development certificate' - but they will probably want paying a fee to do that, and the fee is now close to what a householder planning application costs.

Yours seems to be a complicated situation.  If it were me I wouldn't want to rely on a guess as to whether it is or isn't permitted development, and the reliability of any advice from this forum will be limited by us only having some of the information.

Heliocentric

You don't need to send the link to the council.  They will know about permitted development rights already.

Surely I will if I need them to clarify I don't need planning permission? This is the only way I can know. I need their confirmation that the single window is permitted.

However, as explained in an earlier post, some types of 'development' in specific circumstances have been granted consent already via the permitted development scheme.  If the work being done complies with all the requirements of PD (e.g. is a house

So this looks like I won't need planning permission then but I want to confirm with someone and I will need to send the council and planning that PDF.

They must have thought it was a flat.

Edit - This is in that document regarding Class A. So looks like I do have to pay?

• it may be appropriate to replace existing windows with new uPVC double-glazed

windows or include them in an extension even if there are no such windows in the

existing house. What is important is that they give a similar visual appearance to

those in the existing house, for example in terms of their overall shape, and the

colour and size of the frames.

Thanks.

Heliocentric

Grumpy_chap said:

Usually, changes to fenestration (technical planning term for windows) do not require planning permission.

Sometimes, there is a restriction that means PP is required - either area designation such as "conservation area" or a specific "article 4 direction" that is particular to the property.

We had an extension which was approved but came with a specific restriction about the fenestration.  When we wanted to change the windows, we duly applied for PP.  The Planning Dept struggled to process the application and did not believe we were simply changing windows, but did then approve regardless.

Why does the OP (or the Planning Department) not consider that the change to the windows falls under PD Class A?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d77afc8e5274a27cdb2c9e9/190910_Tech_Guide_for_publishing.pdf

In that document it says this under class A:

it may be appropriate to replace existing windows with new uPVC double-glazed windows or include them in an extension even if there are no such windows in the existing house. What is important is that they give a similar visual appearance to those in the existing house, for example in terms of their overall shape, and the colour and size of the frames.

silvercar

Section62 said:

silvercar said:

TELLIT01 said:

If the work required planning permission it really doesn't matter whether you agree with the cost or not.  You have to pay it or risk action for breaking planning rules.

The risk may be very low. There is always the option of indemnity policies when you sell, which would be a lot cheaper.

But it is a legal requirement to obtain planning consent where it is required, and failure to do so can result in planning enforcement action.  And failure to comply with a planning enforcement notice is a criminal offence.  Hopefully the forum isn't encouraging people to do unlawful things, no matter how remote the chances of enforcement might be.  That isn't moneysaving.

Since the OP appears to have been in touch with the council already then an indemnity policy probably wouldn't be an option.

It’s not that black and white. If it were the whole system of retrospective planning permission wouldn’t exist. 

My son lives on a street of terraced Victorian houses, 9 out of 12 houses have loft conversions, every single one had retrospective planning permission rather than planning consent before the work commenced. I don’t know why that is, maybe it is because it is easier to gain PP retrospectively, but in the real world that is what people do.

Heliocentric

So would you just go ahead and change the windows and apply afterwards or do the windows and not say anything at all?