What’s wrong with this property

Herzlos

ReadySteadyPop said:

Herzlos said:

ReadySteadyPop said:

 You are liable for your mortgage debt whether you find a buyer or not, increasingly people can`t find buyers willing or able to pay the price they need to get out from under their mortgage debt.

And your liable for your rental debt whether you can get the landlord to let you out of the lease or not. 

It's definitely easier to get out of a rental than a mortgage, and the total debt will be lower, but what you're ignoring is that most people aren't underwater on their mortgage and can safely downsize given enough time. 

It's a bigger risk for buyers using low deposits and early on in the ownership, but after say 10 years it's likely they'll have a combination of capital repayment and house price growth giving them some equity. By about 25 years (the length of your rental so far?) most people have it paid off completely and are at essentially no risk of losing the house. 

Using me as an example, I bought not long after you sold, and ended up at 110% LTV which gave me a bad mortgage rate for a while (still cheaper than my friends equivalent rent) but nearly 20 years later I'm sitting at about 63% LTV on a house that's worth twice as much. So house prices would need to drop 37% for me to lose out. 
In another 10 years, when you've bought your landlord another flat, I'll presumably be closer to 40% LTV and needing a 60% drop. 

 People can`t "safely downsize" unless they bought 40 years ago, that is what bubbles do, people are on the hook now for 35 years debt on basic one and two bed properties in some parts of the country.

10 years, maybe. If they bought 40 years ago the mortgage will be paid off and assuming all house prices rise and fall roughly in line, there will almost always be a cheaper house somewhere. 

I bought 2 years ago and I could easily downsize if I had to. I could easily get £100k back out of it if I wanted. 

What would you get if you downsized your HMO? Can you go any cheaper?

ReadySteadyPop

itsthelittlethings said:

What's wrong with it is that it's 10 x a solid salary for someone buying their first property aged 35.

Yes, that`s it in a nutshell.

ReadySteadyPop

RHemmings said:

Returning to the actual property, rather than 'debating house prices and the economy', if I have the right flat on Zoopla:

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/69980351/

then, it sold for £308k in July 2019. 

Looking at my oft-quoted Plumplot graphs, nominal (not just real) house prices in North-West London are actually lower than they were in 2019. Hence, that individual property looks significantly overpriced by that measure. But, the above is a very crude method of working out the value of the flat.

Looking at sales in Adastra House itself, it appears that the price of £308k in 2019 is unusually low. 

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/house-prices/london/nether-street-n3/?beds_max=1&beds_min=1&new_homes=include&q=nether+street+finchley+n3&propertyTypeCode=F&identifier=london/nether-street-n3&view_type=list

There will be a reason for that unusually low price. Not necessarily because something is wrong with the flat. But, is it for example smaller than other one bed flats in the same building. 

However, it seems that the flats in that building that sold in May 2019 (presumably, new) went for a LOT more than those that sold in July 2019. E.g. No. 5 sold for £304k + change in July. https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/uprn/10093993116/  But, flat 20 sold for £425k in May 2019. https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/uprn/10093993131/  And then, Flat 14 sold for £447k in September 2019. 

So, without inside (literally) knowledge of the flats and how they differ (if they do), then it's very hard to work out the current value of the flat, and to know what it should sell for. 

Again, going to a cruder measure, the last 1 bed flat that sold in that building was Flat 13 https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/uprn/10093993124/  which sold for £358k in August 2024. So, assuming those are like and similar flats, then at £365k, the current flat is a bit overpriced. But, not hugely. 

There is only one flat in that building for sale currently, on Rightmove. So, it's not like some buildings I could name where there are lots of near identical flats for sale, creating competition. 

In terms of how much people can now borrow compared to 2019 and how much the monthly debt costs would be it is very overpriced, they will be doing well to get the 2019 price in my opinion.

RHemmings

ReadySteadyPop said:

RHemmings said:

Returning to the actual property, rather than 'debating house prices and the economy', if I have the right flat on Zoopla:

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/69980351/

then, it sold for £308k in July 2019. 

Looking at my oft-quoted Plumplot graphs, nominal (not just real) house prices in North-West London are actually lower than they were in 2019. Hence, that individual property looks significantly overpriced by that measure. But, the above is a very crude method of working out the value of the flat.

Looking at sales in Adastra House itself, it appears that the price of £308k in 2019 is unusually low. 

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/house-prices/london/nether-street-n3/?beds_max=1&beds_min=1&new_homes=include&q=nether+street+finchley+n3&propertyTypeCode=F&identifier=london/nether-street-n3&view_type=list

There will be a reason for that unusually low price. Not necessarily because something is wrong with the flat. But, is it for example smaller than other one bed flats in the same building. 

However, it seems that the flats in that building that sold in May 2019 (presumably, new) went for a LOT more than those that sold in July 2019. E.g. No. 5 sold for £304k + change in July. https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/uprn/10093993116/  But, flat 20 sold for £425k in May 2019. https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/uprn/10093993131/  And then, Flat 14 sold for £447k in September 2019. 

So, without inside (literally) knowledge of the flats and how they differ (if they do), then it's very hard to work out the current value of the flat, and to know what it should sell for. 

Again, going to a cruder measure, the last 1 bed flat that sold in that building was Flat 13 https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/uprn/10093993124/  which sold for £358k in August 2024. So, assuming those are like and similar flats, then at £365k, the current flat is a bit overpriced. But, not hugely. 

There is only one flat in that building for sale currently, on Rightmove. So, it's not like some buildings I could name where there are lots of near identical flats for sale, creating competition. 

In terms of how much people can now borrow compared to 2019 and how much the monthly debt costs would be it is very overpriced, they will be doing well to get the 2019 price in my opinion.

Interest rates peaked in 2023, and have now reduced a bit. E.g.: https://www.statista.com/statistics/386301/uk-average-mortgage-interest-rates/ 

It's clear that one similar property in the block sold for £358k in late 2024. From looking at sold house prices, it's also clear that quite a lot of 1 bedroom flats within one mile have sold since the IR peak at prices around or higher than £360k. 

Personally I would say that unless there's something specifically wrong with the flat, that it will sell for £340k with little to no problem. Clearly nobody knows exactly what it will sell for. But, if you are suggesting a price less than £308k as the most likely price that can be achieved, then unless there's something wrong with that particular flat, I don't think that's a realistic suggestion. I checked the listing again for photos, and it looks like a normal London 1-bed to me. It's not like it's an indoor flat with no windows/balcony or something else weird. I wouldn't be surprised if it achieves even closer to the current asking price than £340k. 

A 2-bed flat in the same block is on sale for £575k. Flats 24 and 34 in the same block sold for £665k and £635k in November and August 2024. That does not seem to be an unrealistic asking price at the moment, but if it was me trying to buy a 2 bed flat there now, I'd be aiming for a bit less than the £575. But, not hugely less.

In terms of interest rates, the flats that sold above sold when mortgage rates were higher. 

On Rightmove, there are loads of 1 bed flats within a mile which are SSTC with prices higher than the £365k asking of the property in this thread. 

Looking at actual facts, I see no justification for your claim that the sellers of the flat in the OP would be 'doing very well to get the 2019 price'. 

Having an opinion is one thing. Backing it up with something is even better. Which is what I've tried to do with facts. I've created an entry in my calendar for six months into the future to check then what actually happens. 

GDB2222

RHemmings said:

ReadySteadyPop said:

RHemmings said:

Returning to the actual property, rather than 'debating house prices and the economy', if I have the right flat on Zoopla:

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/69980351/

then, it sold for £308k in July 2019. 

Looking at my oft-quoted Plumplot graphs, nominal (not just real) house prices in North-West London are actually lower than they were in 2019. Hence, that individual property looks significantly overpriced by that measure. But, the above is a very crude method of working out the value of the flat.

Looking at sales in Adastra House itself, it appears that the price of £308k in 2019 is unusually low. 

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/house-prices/london/nether-street-n3/?beds_max=1&beds_min=1&new_homes=include&q=nether+street+finchley+n3&propertyTypeCode=F&identifier=london/nether-street-n3&view_type=list

There will be a reason for that unusually low price. Not necessarily because something is wrong with the flat. But, is it for example smaller than other one bed flats in the same building. 

However, it seems that the flats in that building that sold in May 2019 (presumably, new) went for a LOT more than those that sold in July 2019. E.g. No. 5 sold for £304k + change in July. https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/uprn/10093993116/  But, flat 20 sold for £425k in May 2019. https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/uprn/10093993131/  And then, Flat 14 sold for £447k in September 2019. 

So, without inside (literally) knowledge of the flats and how they differ (if they do), then it's very hard to work out the current value of the flat, and to know what it should sell for. 

Again, going to a cruder measure, the last 1 bed flat that sold in that building was Flat 13 https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/uprn/10093993124/  which sold for £358k in August 2024. So, assuming those are like and similar flats, then at £365k, the current flat is a bit overpriced. But, not hugely. 

There is only one flat in that building for sale currently, on Rightmove. So, it's not like some buildings I could name where there are lots of near identical flats for sale, creating competition. 

In terms of how much people can now borrow compared to 2019 and how much the monthly debt costs would be it is very overpriced, they will be doing well to get the 2019 price in my opinion.

Interest rates peaked in 2023, and have now reduced a bit. E.g.: https://www.statista.com/statistics/386301/uk-average-mortgage-interest-rates/ 

It's clear that one similar property in the block sold for £358k in late 2024. From looking at sold house prices, it's also clear that quite a lot of 1 bedroom flats within one mile have sold since the IR peak at prices around or higher than £360k. 

Personally I would say that unless there's something specifically wrong with the flat, that it will sell for £340k with little to no problem. Clearly nobody knows exactly what it will sell for. But, if you are suggesting a price less than £308k as the most likely price that can be achieved, then unless there's something wrong with that particular flat, I don't think that's a realistic suggestion. I checked the listing again for photos, and it looks like a normal London 1-bed to me. It's not like it's an indoor flat with no windows/balcony or something else weird. I wouldn't be surprised if it achieves even closer to the current asking price than £340k. 

A 2-bed flat in the same block is on sale for £575k. Flats 24 and 34 in the same block sold for £665k and £635k in November and August 2024. That does not seem to be an unrealistic asking price at the moment, but if it was me trying to buy a 2 bed flat there now, I'd be aiming for a bit less than the £575. But, not hugely less.

In terms of interest rates, the flats that sold above sold when mortgage rates were higher. 

On Rightmove, there are loads of 1 bed flats within a mile which are SSTC with prices higher than the £365k asking of the property in this thread. 

Looking at actual facts, I see no justification for your claim that the sellers of the flat in the OP would be 'doing very well to get the 2019 price'. 

Having an opinion is one thing. Backing it up with something is even better. Which is what I've tried to do with facts. I've created an entry in my calendar for six months into the future to check then what actually happens. 

£600k (or thereabouts) will buy a house with a garden in Barnet, and I'd massively prefer that. So, I find it difficult to see how £575k for a flat in a busy location in Finchley makes sense. However, I accept that that is just my personal viewpoint. 

RHemmings

GDB2222 said:

RHemmings said:

ReadySteadyPop said:

RHemmings said:

Returning to the actual property, rather than 'debating house prices and the economy', if I have the right flat on Zoopla:

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/69980351/

then, it sold for £308k in July 2019. 

Looking at my oft-quoted Plumplot graphs, nominal (not just real) house prices in North-West London are actually lower than they were in 2019. Hence, that individual property looks significantly overpriced by that measure. But, the above is a very crude method of working out the value of the flat.

Looking at sales in Adastra House itself, it appears that the price of £308k in 2019 is unusually low. 

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/house-prices/london/nether-street-n3/?beds_max=1&beds_min=1&new_homes=include&q=nether+street+finchley+n3&propertyTypeCode=F&identifier=london/nether-street-n3&view_type=list

There will be a reason for that unusually low price. Not necessarily because something is wrong with the flat. But, is it for example smaller than other one bed flats in the same building. 

However, it seems that the flats in that building that sold in May 2019 (presumably, new) went for a LOT more than those that sold in July 2019. E.g. No. 5 sold for £304k + change in July. https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/uprn/10093993116/  But, flat 20 sold for £425k in May 2019. https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/uprn/10093993131/  And then, Flat 14 sold for £447k in September 2019. 

So, without inside (literally) knowledge of the flats and how they differ (if they do), then it's very hard to work out the current value of the flat, and to know what it should sell for. 

Again, going to a cruder measure, the last 1 bed flat that sold in that building was Flat 13 https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/uprn/10093993124/  which sold for £358k in August 2024. So, assuming those are like and similar flats, then at £365k, the current flat is a bit overpriced. But, not hugely. 

There is only one flat in that building for sale currently, on Rightmove. So, it's not like some buildings I could name where there are lots of near identical flats for sale, creating competition. 

In terms of how much people can now borrow compared to 2019 and how much the monthly debt costs would be it is very overpriced, they will be doing well to get the 2019 price in my opinion.

Interest rates peaked in 2023, and have now reduced a bit. E.g.: https://www.statista.com/statistics/386301/uk-average-mortgage-interest-rates/ 

It's clear that one similar property in the block sold for £358k in late 2024. From looking at sold house prices, it's also clear that quite a lot of 1 bedroom flats within one mile have sold since the IR peak at prices around or higher than £360k. 

Personally I would say that unless there's something specifically wrong with the flat, that it will sell for £340k with little to no problem. Clearly nobody knows exactly what it will sell for. But, if you are suggesting a price less than £308k as the most likely price that can be achieved, then unless there's something wrong with that particular flat, I don't think that's a realistic suggestion. I checked the listing again for photos, and it looks like a normal London 1-bed to me. It's not like it's an indoor flat with no windows/balcony or something else weird. I wouldn't be surprised if it achieves even closer to the current asking price than £340k. 

A 2-bed flat in the same block is on sale for £575k. Flats 24 and 34 in the same block sold for £665k and £635k in November and August 2024. That does not seem to be an unrealistic asking price at the moment, but if it was me trying to buy a 2 bed flat there now, I'd be aiming for a bit less than the £575. But, not hugely less.

In terms of interest rates, the flats that sold above sold when mortgage rates were higher. 

On Rightmove, there are loads of 1 bed flats within a mile which are SSTC with prices higher than the £365k asking of the property in this thread. 

Looking at actual facts, I see no justification for your claim that the sellers of the flat in the OP would be 'doing very well to get the 2019 price'. 

Having an opinion is one thing. Backing it up with something is even better. Which is what I've tried to do with facts. I've created an entry in my calendar for six months into the future to check then what actually happens. 

£600k (or thereabouts) will buy a house with a garden in Barnet, and I'd massively prefer that. So, I find it difficult to see how £575k for a flat in a busy location in Finchley makes sense. However, I accept that that is just my personal viewpoint. 

Finally I'm able to post again - the forum appears to be fixed. 

In the post you quoted, I was trying to estimate the 'value' of that flat in terms of what someone might pay for it. From actual data. 

Whether it's overall sensible that people will pay that much for small flats in parts of London is an entirely different question that I don't wish to address here. Suffice to say that I moved out of London decades ago, and have no wish to go back. If people want to be paying £575k for a two bedroom flat in a block - then that's their perogative. Certainly people have been paying that much for two bedroom flats in places like Finchley. And, it's likely that there will still be people prepared to pay similar, if not identical amounts, now. 

But, that's a different thread, for a forum that allows debates on 'house prices and the economy'. Here I was looking at the specific flat in the OP. 

ReadySteadyPop

GDB2222 said:

RHemmings said:

ReadySteadyPop said:

RHemmings said:

Returning to the actual property, rather than 'debating house prices and the economy', if I have the right flat on Zoopla:

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/69980351/

then, it sold for £308k in July 2019. 

Looking at my oft-quoted Plumplot graphs, nominal (not just real) house prices in North-West London are actually lower than they were in 2019. Hence, that individual property looks significantly overpriced by that measure. But, the above is a very crude method of working out the value of the flat.

Looking at sales in Adastra House itself, it appears that the price of £308k in 2019 is unusually low. 

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/house-prices/london/nether-street-n3/?beds_max=1&beds_min=1&new_homes=include&q=nether+street+finchley+n3&propertyTypeCode=F&identifier=london/nether-street-n3&view_type=list

There will be a reason for that unusually low price. Not necessarily because something is wrong with the flat. But, is it for example smaller than other one bed flats in the same building. 

However, it seems that the flats in that building that sold in May 2019 (presumably, new) went for a LOT more than those that sold in July 2019. E.g. No. 5 sold for £304k + change in July. https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/uprn/10093993116/  But, flat 20 sold for £425k in May 2019. https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/uprn/10093993131/  And then, Flat 14 sold for £447k in September 2019. 

So, without inside (literally) knowledge of the flats and how they differ (if they do), then it's very hard to work out the current value of the flat, and to know what it should sell for. 

Again, going to a cruder measure, the last 1 bed flat that sold in that building was Flat 13 https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/uprn/10093993124/  which sold for £358k in August 2024. So, assuming those are like and similar flats, then at £365k, the current flat is a bit overpriced. But, not hugely. 

There is only one flat in that building for sale currently, on Rightmove. So, it's not like some buildings I could name where there are lots of near identical flats for sale, creating competition. 

In terms of how much people can now borrow compared to 2019 and how much the monthly debt costs would be it is very overpriced, they will be doing well to get the 2019 price in my opinion.

Interest rates peaked in 2023, and have now reduced a bit. E.g.: https://www.statista.com/statistics/386301/uk-average-mortgage-interest-rates/ 

It's clear that one similar property in the block sold for £358k in late 2024. From looking at sold house prices, it's also clear that quite a lot of 1 bedroom flats within one mile have sold since the IR peak at prices around or higher than £360k. 

Personally I would say that unless there's something specifically wrong with the flat, that it will sell for £340k with little to no problem. Clearly nobody knows exactly what it will sell for. But, if you are suggesting a price less than £308k as the most likely price that can be achieved, then unless there's something wrong with that particular flat, I don't think that's a realistic suggestion. I checked the listing again for photos, and it looks like a normal London 1-bed to me. It's not like it's an indoor flat with no windows/balcony or something else weird. I wouldn't be surprised if it achieves even closer to the current asking price than £340k. 

A 2-bed flat in the same block is on sale for £575k. Flats 24 and 34 in the same block sold for £665k and £635k in November and August 2024. That does not seem to be an unrealistic asking price at the moment, but if it was me trying to buy a 2 bed flat there now, I'd be aiming for a bit less than the £575. But, not hugely less.

In terms of interest rates, the flats that sold above sold when mortgage rates were higher. 

On Rightmove, there are loads of 1 bed flats within a mile which are SSTC with prices higher than the £365k asking of the property in this thread. 

Looking at actual facts, I see no justification for your claim that the sellers of the flat in the OP would be 'doing very well to get the 2019 price'. 

Having an opinion is one thing. Backing it up with something is even better. Which is what I've tried to do with facts. I've created an entry in my calendar for six months into the future to check then what actually happens. 

£600k (or thereabouts) will buy a house with a garden in Barnet, and I'd massively prefer that. So, I find it difficult to see how £575k for a flat in a busy location in Finchley makes sense. However, I accept that that is just my personal viewpoint. 

That just underlines how far from reality we have drifted as a country, I think we are headed for severe financial trouble.

Ybe

Thank you for all your help, it’s very useful and I’m learning so much. 

A question on the new build at the former Homebase site - If I can get 5% off on these flats, would that bring it in line with market value? Or would it still be overpriced? I remember these initially being priced starting at 420k when they were first released at the end of last year. Now starting price is 380k so if I can get 5% off which is apparently standard with big developers, that would take it down to about 361k. 

https://www.taylorwimpey.co.uk/new-homes/north-finchley/the-tramworks?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=TWNT%20-%20The%20Tramworks%20-%20Search&infinity=ict2~net~gaw~cmp~TWNT%20-%20The%20Tramworks%20-%20Search~ag~Finchley~ar~706588395258~kw~new%20property%20finchley~mt~p&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21496349279&gbraid=0AAAAADyYQbEBTsGM-FVRcuZ4iEHNFuAd_

GDB2222

You can easily answer this question yourself. Just look on rightmove and see what else is available. Why do you think other people would keep on doing this for you? 

Ybe

GDB2222 said:

You can easily answer this question yourself. Just look on rightmove and see what else is available. Why do you think other people would keep on doing this for you? 

Thank you for your contribution . It’s about right from what I’ve seen ( builds from the last 5 years at the same floor area are currently listed as resales for around this price range and the sold prices of new builds are about this price) but I like to do a sense check.