Executor having problems with a beneficiary

Fluffybear2

Hi, I m the executor of a will. I ve completed probate and all the necessary processes. Now I am trying to distribute the funds to the beneficaries. One of the beneficiaries will not supply their bank account details for their share of the funds. They are on alot of DWP benefits and don't want to loose them.  What can i do as I am desperate to finish this process as soon as possible. 
Any advice would be gratefully appreciated.
Kind regards

MattMattMattUK

Fluffybear2 said:

Hi, I m the executor of a will. I ve completed probate and all the necessary processes. Now I am trying to distribute the funds to the beneficaries. One of the beneficiaries will not supply their bank account details for their share of the funds. They are on alot of DWP benefits and don't want to loose them.  What can i do as I am desperate to finish this process as soon as possible. 
Any advice would be gratefully appreciated.
Kind regards

Send them a cheque? Send them a letter giving them the option of varying the will and transferring that amount to the other beneficiaries? Although that would also terminate their benefits if they found out. 

madbadrob

MattMattMattUK said:

Fluffybear2 said:

Hi, I m the executor of a will. I ve completed probate and all the necessary processes. Now I am trying to distribute the funds to the beneficaries. One of the beneficiaries will not supply their bank account details for their share of the funds. They are on alot of DWP benefits and don't want to loose them.  What can i do as I am desperate to finish this process as soon as possible. 
Any advice would be gratefully appreciated.
Kind regards

Send them a cheque? Send them a letter giving them the option of varying the will and transferring that amount to the other beneficiaries? Although that would also terminate their benefits if they found out. 

Unfortunately until that cheque is cashed the duties of the executor are not concluded.  Also as I have shown before benefits are not affected if a beneficiary refuses or disposes of the monies.  My grandfather died leaving my mum a substantial amount of money ( well substantial in terms of the then 16k savings limit dwp had) she split that money between my brother and I because she waanted us to have a stable start to married life ( it didnt work but thats another story).  She was reported to the DWP who investigated her and who took her to a tribunal.  With the help of teh CAB legal team and the bank accounts of mine and my brothers the DWP were found to have no case as no fraud was committed.  No law of the land says you have to accept a gift from a will and all the executor would need is a letter stating they were not interested in receiving the gift of the will.  So long as it is signed this money can then be distributed as per the will

Rob

tacpot12

madbadrob said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Fluffybear2 said:

Hi, I m the executor of a will. I ve completed probate and all the necessary processes. Now I am trying to distribute the funds to the beneficaries. One of the beneficiaries will not supply their bank account details for their share of the funds. They are on alot of DWP benefits and don't want to loose them.  What can i do as I am desperate to finish this process as soon as possible. 
Any advice would be gratefully appreciated.
Kind regards

Send them a cheque? Send them a letter giving them the option of varying the will and transferring that amount to the other beneficiaries? Although that would also terminate their benefits if they found out. 

Unfortunately until that cheque is cashed the duties of the executor are not concluded.  Also as I have shown before benefits are not affected if a beneficiary refuses or disposes of the monies.  My grandfather died leaving my mum a substantial amount of money ( well substantial in terms of the then 16k savings limit dwp had) she split that money between my brother and I because she waanted us to have a stable start to married life ( it didnt work but thats another story).  She was reported to the DWP who investigated her and who took her to a tribunal.  With the help of teh CAB legal team and the bank accounts of mine and my brothers the DWP were found to have no case as no fraud was committed.  No law of the land says you have to accept a gift from a will and all the executor would need is a letter stating they were not interested in receiving the gift of the will.  So long as it is signed this money can then be distributed as per the will

Rob

Just be aware that Rob's example my no longer be applicable if the claimant is claiming Universal Credit as there are different rules about deliberate deprivation of assets. I am surprised that madbadrob's mother won her case, as this is a clear case of deliberate deprivation of assets. It should never have been a fraud case, unless the DWP messed up and charged her with fraud.  

Grumpy_chap

Maybe the beneficiary is the author of this thread here:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6609587/universal-credit-refusing-legacy-deprivation-of-capital/p1

The comments therein clearly differ from the experience re-told by @madbadrob

Hoenir

Ask the beneficiary to sign a disclaimer or agree to deed of variation.

If the beneficiary remains uncooperative as a last resort the monies can passed to the Court. . 

madbadrob

Grumpy_chap said:

Maybe the beneficiary is the author of this thread here:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6609587/universal-credit-refusing-legacy-deprivation-of-capital/p1

The comments therein clearly differ from the experience re-told by @madbadrob

I have just read through that thread then I have done a couple of searches online and the underlying point is that the DWP would have to prove that your refusing the gift was primarlially to protect you from losing means tested benefits.  The only way DWP could prove this would be if you was to tell them you refused the gift because you didnt want it to affect your benefits.  Renaissance legal similarly state "When deciding whether something is deliberate, the DWP looks at the significant operative purpose of what has been done. If preserving means-tested benefits is not the significant operative purpose then, the refusal of the inheritance, gift of it or spending it quickly, may not equate to deliberate deprivation."  

So Id have to concede in the OP's case and assuming DWP were to find out the beneficiary could be found to have deliberately deprived themselves of monies to avoid losing means tested benefits.  

This is a long ongoing query on many legal forums with many lawyers, accountants and other professionals arguing different approaches and how this would affect Means tested benefits.  FOr example in 2020 a court upheld that the monies that had been put into a trust after the death of her grandfather was not deprivation of funds (estate was worth between 600-8000k) because the grandfathers will suggested a trust should be used.  This led to a long queue forming for people to start trusts to avoid this however in 2023/23 another appeal cort decision for another claimant found that the trust they were using did not qualify under the LMS result as the trust was never mentioned in the will and the trust was started with the sole purpose of avoiding losing means tested benefits

Rob

FlorayG

These sort of threads make me so angry. Not at you, OP, but at a person who would rather live off MY tax money than sort themselves out sufficiently to accept money that has been given to them and live off that until it's gone. They are so lazy they would rather not have it and stay on benefits than use it and have to re-apply later.

madbadrob

tacpot12 said:

madbadrob said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Fluffybear2 said:

Hi, I m the executor of a will. I ve completed probate and all the necessary processes. Now I am trying to distribute the funds to the beneficaries. One of the beneficiaries will not supply their bank account details for their share of the funds. They are on alot of DWP benefits and don't want to loose them.  What can i do as I am desperate to finish this process as soon as possible. 
Any advice would be gratefully appreciated.
Kind regards

Send them a cheque? Send them a letter giving them the option of varying the will and transferring that amount to the other beneficiaries? Although that would also terminate their benefits if they found out. 

Unfortunately until that cheque is cashed the duties of the executor are not concluded.  Also as I have shown before benefits are not affected if a beneficiary refuses or disposes of the monies.  My grandfather died leaving my mum a substantial amount of money ( well substantial in terms of the then 16k savings limit dwp had) she split that money between my brother and I because she waanted us to have a stable start to married life ( it didnt work but thats another story).  She was reported to the DWP who investigated her and who took her to a tribunal.  With the help of teh CAB legal team and the bank accounts of mine and my brothers the DWP were found to have no case as no fraud was committed.  No law of the land says you have to accept a gift from a will and all the executor would need is a letter stating they were not interested in receiving the gift of the will.  So long as it is signed this money can then be distributed as per the will

Rob

Just be aware that Rob's example my no longer be applicable if the claimant is claiming Universal Credit as there are different rules about deliberate deprivation of assets. I am surprised that madbadrob's mother won her case, as this is a clear case of deliberate deprivation of assets. It should never have been a fraud case, unless the DWP messed up and charged her with fraud.  

From the first day of their investigations I made the case that my mother was in fact following my grandfathers wishes in sharing the money with us and that by doing so she was doing what my grandfathr had expressed manay times both verbally and as a part of his will.  

At the time in question the DWP or as it was then the DSS investigated my mother for fraudulently claiming benefits by giving away £xxx to deliberately defraud the DSS of money.  Using the CAB legal team and my own knoweldge of law (criminal is something I excell in although im not a lawyer) we argued that at no time did the DSS say that any inheritance had to be declared if the money was subsequently divided between her children and that she had no deliberately gone about buying frivously to reduce her savings.  We conceded that she knew there was a limit of £16k of savings (mum as just said when I called her it was £12k savings) but argued that my grandfathers will suggested and he had on numerous occasions made reference to how he felt they (my mum and aunt) should spend their inheritance.  His will stated that mum would get 3/8 of the property value and my aunt 5/8 (my aunt had given some of the money for my grandparents to buy their council house) with the residual cash split 50/50 it directed that they should spend or invest this money in whatever way they felt would benefit them and their issue.  He made it clear in his will and one we had known for years that he wasnt leaving any monies to the grandchildren as he believed that was for our parents to do and he would be happy if they were to confer some but not all of the gifts on to the grandchildren.   My mum argued that she therefore believed he would be happy to know that she had given my brother and I an equal sum of money (which took her drastically under the savings limit) because this was helping his great grand children have a more stable life financially.  Again my brother and I at the time had no clue in reality what saving was all about.  In summing up the legal team said that my mum had not given the money away to deprive the government of any monies, that she had never been told and in fact there was no mention in any of the tehn paperwork that any inherited money had to be declared if it didnt go above the savings limit and she felt that my grandfather although not explcitly in his will had hoped that his grandchildren would receive some money from our parents. The DSS tribunal decided that on the evidence supplied both in terms of the will bank accounts and statements from others that my mother had not deliberately deprived herself of an monies and that she hadnt fraudulently been obtaining her sick benefits for 4 years and that the case was rejected and that the DSS would repay her all the back monies she was owed.  When asked if this would put her in a similar position as it would push her into the bracket of having more in savings than the DSS allowed she was told at the tribunal that because this was down to the DSS questioning her entitlement that it could not be considered for the benefit of her entitlement.  It didnt last long over the threshold as she took a long earned holiday. 

So as you can see not every case is the same and that not all gifts away from the person on means tested benefits can be seen as deliberate deprivation.  However as I have said on the post before this of mine I will concede that I was incorrect that a gift could be refused and it not be seen as deliberate deprivation

Rob

Grumpy_chap

madbadrob said:

 she was doing what my grandfathr had expressed manay times both verbally and as a part of his will.  

Following what the Will required is probably the big difference in the case described and the case in this thread (or the separate thread I linked), where the Beneficiary seems to be trying to avoid receiving the inheritance the Will passes in their direction.

I have to say, I do struggle to understand the cases where an individual suggests they might not wish to receive an inheritance lump sum because they do not want to lose their means-tested benefits.

As I understand it, the options two scenarios would be:

Not receive the inheritance.  Need to continuously satisfy eligibility criteria and commitments.  Unable to spend at a rate above UC.  Continue like so for ever.

Receive the inheritance.  No need to report in what you are doing - no eligibility criteria / commitments.  Able to spend at a higher rate than UC income limits.  Greater freedom to do as you wish.  The money eventually runs out.  Return to UC and continue like so for ever.

The second route (receive the inheritance) also might afford options, for example ability to fund training or such like that leads to greater long-term financial independence.

Given the queries of the type "how can I avoid receiving inheritance to retain my UC" arise with a certain frequency, does that mean there is something in the process that I am not seeing / not understanding?

Fluffybear2

Thank you for the advice.  The beneficiary knows exactly how to work the benefit system. They have had 35 years worth of practice. I think my best approach is to write again asking the question of why they don't want to give me their bank details.  Then point out that they can disclaim their inheritance. I believe that they can not get a deed of variation as the person died over two years ago.  If all this fails I will approach the courts for their direction. 
Let's hope they see sense. Wish me luck.
Kind regards